Professor Mariana Mazzucato

You can't just choose one.

You can't just do missions without participation.

You can't just do participation without sharing the rewards.

You can't share the rewards if we don't have any transparency, because then we don't even understand what's happening, who's doing what and why.

Well, it's definitely about both.

And the first bit you mentioned is about empathy, which is listening, not just sympathy, right?

So actually being humble enough to listen and to talk to people.

And you have a structure also to do that.

So it's not just random, you know, talking to someone one day and then going back to your old way of

And I just saw Andy Burnham actually in Madrid some weeks ago.

We were there because I work with Bloomberg Philanthropies with mayors around the world in terms of thinking of what capabilities do they need within their public sector institutions.

And he came running up to me.

It was very nice, actually.

I hadn't seen him in a while to thank me for the work that we had done with him in Manchester five years ago and was very keen that we continue to engage.

And I was like, well, let's see also how things go, right?

But what I also experienced with him

when we were working in Manchester was not just he was talking to people, but there was a very genuine and concrete interest in improving, for example, sustainable mobility in the city.

So it's across.

So, you know, for example, you can talk about transport.

That's just a sector.