Professor Mariana Mazzucato

And what came out for some people was they wanted to transform the food banks, which are alive and well in a country with so much child poverty and inequality, into green food cooperatives.

So the idea of having both kind of, you know, green sourcing of the food so it's sustainable food, it's not just any food, you know, Greg's pastries.

No, this is about sustainability across the supply chain in the food co-op, but also the governance, the dignity, the sense of ownership.

So these two things should come hand in hand.

And whether we think about, again, the digital divide.

We should be talking to mothers of children who, during COVID, did not have access to their right to education because they did not have access to the benefits of digitalization.

So it's through that lived experience that we should be designing better policies.

There's a great book by Jennifer Palca, a friend of mine in the US, who says that digital platforms, for example, are often designed by people who've never even used them to access, for example, welfare payments.

And yet, if you look at Ken Loach's great films where you see people literally just feeling so humiliated because of all the forms and how they're being asked to interact with the digital economy to access, again, their human right, it's insulting.

It's condescending.

So we should be using the experience of people when they're trying to access their human rights through digital public infrastructure to design a better infrastructure.

So do you see what I'm saying?

It's not just about, oh, ask everyone what they think.

It's using...

the experience on the ground to design these better policies with people instead of at them.

And what I do in the book is I try to give quite a bit of hope in the middle, right?

So it's theory, policy, and places.

The policy bit, which is where I take each element and look at different examples around the world.

But I also say that it's a compass.

Each one of those elements have to be happening.