Professor Mariana Mazzucato

You don't value us.

So if you're going to set up an Amazon fund, which has been set up, it was celebrated at the COP conference, which happened in Belém this year, we should be governing it because we understand it.

Don't just pay all these NGOs to come and do good for us.

We want to be at the center of the governance.

They should inform policies that are supposed to be for them.

So just to be very clear, it's not about asking everyone what they think about any kind of national mission.

It's actually about saying, so the reason I talked about the moon was to say we would never get to the moon today, ever, if we did business-friendly, in quotes, policies, right?

What did NASA do?

They changed how procurement was done in an outcomes-oriented way, worked with 400,000 people in the private sector, strongly directed by NASA, and had to solve all the problems on the ground for the astronauts.

What would they wear?

What would they eat?

How would they go to the bathroom?

So bring it then to local earthly policies and also not just earthly national, regional, but also local.

What does it mean to have very clear, not fuzzy targets?

Break that down into different types of problems that have to be solved.

But who defines what those problems are?

For the moon, of course, it can be the scientists, right, who understand that problem.

On Earth, if we want net zero in a city, for example, we should be speaking to people and

on what actually green even means.

So again, back to Camden, what we did was we worked with the citizen assemblies and the resident associations to talk about what in terms of sustainability targets would matter to you most.