Professor Mariana Mazzucato

That's just chaos.

Yeah.

There's different ways, and this is what I talk about in the book through examples, that if you are, for example, the work we did in Camden around the mission for adult social care across 10 housing estates, the point was use the lived experience, the people who have been, whether it's in the red states or adult social care in Camden, been left behind by a system that does not work.

They should inform how to do adult social care in Camden, who

Who?

The carers who've had the experience on the ground.

The carees who have not been well looked after.

Use their lived experience.

This is why, by the way, even though I'm not very religious, I had this nice relationship with Pope Francis before he died.

For five years, actually, we talked a lot about the common good.

And before he died, we organized a conference together on it.

He talked about the principle of subsidiarity around the common good, meaning the most local level, the lived experience need to inform how we redo capitalism.

In the Amazon forest, not the company,

I'm currently working with the Secretary of Traditional Peoples, Edel Morais, who's absolutely inspirational.

Similarly to the Camden issue, she said, you know what?

There's people in the forest.

She, again, represents all the traditional peoples in the Amazon.

She says, we have knowledge that you don't respect.

We understand the hydrological cycle.

We understand biodiversity.