Rachel Abrams

In other words, demon mode, as we described earlier.

But how much of this is actually about the budget of USAID? Like, it doesn't strike me as sort of the biggest agency if you were looking for, you know, big cuts. Is this a huge amount of money? Is it about something that's beyond the money?

But how much of this is actually about the budget of USAID? Like, it doesn't strike me as sort of the biggest agency if you were looking for, you know, big cuts. Is this a huge amount of money? Is it about something that's beyond the money?

Where do you think Musk and Doge go from here? Because we're only two weeks into the new administration, so I'm wondering if you expect that he's going to continue to operate without much resistance. Yeah.

Where do you think Musk and Doge go from here? Because we're only two weeks into the new administration, so I'm wondering if you expect that he's going to continue to operate without much resistance. Yeah.

Okay, so Jonathan, is there an argument to be made that this kind of slash-and-burn tactic is actually the only way to carry out the promise that Musk and Trump have made about shrinking the government?

Okay, so Jonathan, is there an argument to be made that this kind of slash-and-burn tactic is actually the only way to carry out the promise that Musk and Trump have made about shrinking the government?

And that also, given Musk's track record in the private sector and his unique standing with Trump, Musk is uniquely positioned—some might even say he's really qualified—to make these kind of cuts in a way that nobody has before?

And that also, given Musk's track record in the private sector and his unique standing with Trump, Musk is uniquely positioned—some might even say he's really qualified—to make these kind of cuts in a way that nobody has before?

But the stakes feel really different here.

But the stakes feel really different here.

So basically what you're saying is that you're encouraging possibly the most talented, maybe some of the most important civil servants across the government who do a range of things to leave. And that does raise a really interesting question of who is left.

So basically what you're saying is that you're encouraging possibly the most talented, maybe some of the most important civil servants across the government who do a range of things to leave. And that does raise a really interesting question of who is left.

Well, let's talk about his private interests, actually, because there's a whole other dimension to this that we haven't even talked about, which is how much business Elon Musk does with the federal government.

Well, let's talk about his private interests, actually, because there's a whole other dimension to this that we haven't even talked about, which is how much business Elon Musk does with the federal government.

Even if you think he's the right person to cut it down, and even if you think his experience at Twitter is relevant here, and just to remind people, when he took over Twitter and gutted it and got rid of a lot of employees, people said Twitter will never survive this. And obviously, Twitter X is very much still operational.

Even if you think he's the right person to cut it down, and even if you think his experience at Twitter is relevant here, and just to remind people, when he took over Twitter and gutted it and got rid of a lot of employees, people said Twitter will never survive this. And obviously, Twitter X is very much still operational.

Even if you think all of that experience is relevant, he still has all kinds of potential conflicts of interest. So tell us a little bit about that.

Even if you think all of that experience is relevant, he still has all kinds of potential conflicts of interest. So tell us a little bit about that.

Jonathan, you have covered Trump and those around him for years, obviously, and their biggest complaint, and you hear this almost every day from people like Stephen Miller, one of the president's top advisors, you profiled on the show last week, is that the federal government has become overrun by by unelected bureaucrats who are accountable to nobody. They don't face elections.