Rahul Vohra

But I remember knowing at 12 or 13, I had this very clear insight that I was going to be a founder or an entrepreneur.

And for me, it was, again, seeing my parents, who were both doctors,

And in England, doctors do well.

They don't do quite as well as here, but they do pretty well.

Not well enough to escape the rat race, right?

Like, you know, still had a mortgage until their late years, stressed about money always, did well enough to give us a middle-class life.

And I remember looking at that thinking,

I want to escape this particular rat race.

Now, it's a stupid thing to think because it's just rat races all the way up or down, however you slice it.

But my 12-year-old self thought, okay, I want to get to the point where I'm financially independent without having to work.

And...

I think that's a reasonable first motivation as a kid.

It's actually a terrible motivation as a founder.

It's a really bad motivation as an entrepreneur, which became obvious to me over the next 10 years after that.

But that's when I knew.

I didn't join Jagex because I wanted startup experience.

I joined it just because it seemed fun.

And so much, I think almost every decision I've taken was, oh, this seems like the most fun optimizing decision I could take.

So let's talk about fun for a second because there's this idea of like gamifying apps and gamification.

But I think a lot of what you talk about is bringing more foundational ideas of game design into product design.