Raymond Kooner
Appearances
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So like a car accident or a work injury might be worth up to $10,000. Okay. What's advertising? How do you find them? So for paid advertising, the two means of advertising are, number one is Facebook ads. So we spend about a thousand bucks per location on that. The second one is Google ads. So we're spending roughly 500 to a thousand per month on each location. Okay. So what's sales velocity?
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
That's kind of, that's what we're relying on right now.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Like the org chart? Yeah. Yeah, so the docker should be the... So doc's here. Yep. Okay, got it. And then underneath them is like a team lead. Okay. Like an office manager or anything? Yep. Yeah, I guess you could call it. We don't call them that, but. Yeah, sure. Yep. And then there's just usually a scheduler and we have tech. That's it.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So I'm trying to, I try to keep it to four employees per location. Okay.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So this is a scheduler for when they come into the office. I also have a remote team that does all the inbound calls. And it's centrally? Yeah, centrally. Okay.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
They make a base of $80,000 a year, but they probably, like our top ones, make over $150,000.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah, I offered, they range between 10 and 20% net profit. Okay, that's good.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Question on that though, like did you recommend getting, like I try to get them equity, because I want them to come along for the ride, or does that cause, I mean, that would increase our EBITDA, obviously, because it wouldn't be payroll that 20% would go under, it would... improve our EBITDA, but then it also gives them ownership or would you not recommend doing that?
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Because there's months where they hit, like, if they're 20% and they could be taking on, like, $12,000, $15,000 profit in the next month, but then that kills our EBITDA for the next month, if that makes sense. Because it's coming out of payroll versus distribution. Yeah. I don't know if that makes sense.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
How many do you sell per month? On average, we're getting about 35 leads per month. And out of the 35, we have 28 that show. Okay, that's pretty good. And so we have a show rate of about 80%. That's great. And our closing rate is about 71%. So total sales probably roughly around 20. Cool. Solid numbers. Okay. So what's the goal? My three year goal is to try to get to $5 million EBITDA.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
It's basically progress. Maybe it's too small thinking.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So Auburn and Federal Way for sure. Okay, what's the revenue of those two? Revenue is roughly $40,000 a month. Okay, so like $500K-ish. Yeah, $500K. Okay, that's the issue. Yeah, which is like our breaking number, right? Then Capitol Hill and Bellevue are higher than that, so they're middle.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
They are all within 30 miles. Oh, so all of them are in one city. Yeah, so in the same area. But Auburn, Federal Way, and Kent are awesome because they're like within five miles. And it's so easy to rotate stuff after, et cetera. So do you say Kent, Federal Way, and what was the other one? Auburn, for like five, 10 miles. Auburn, interesting. But those are two new ones, right?
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So like Auburn and Federal Way, kind of hard to judge. And if you looked at our EBITDA now, like if you did six months trailing versus 12, it would probably be a lot higher ratio than that because they were kind of eating themselves in the beginning when I first opened it. You had to put some cash into it. Exactly, yeah.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
I want to try to build a business that can run individually, but then I also want to entertain selling to institutional buyer. Okay. So this is very much up your alley what we talk about.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah. So the issue is... patient comes in and then we have to verify their benefits. So there's like 20 different insurances and every patient has a different coverage or whatever, right? So then we have to make our treatment plan and then take out whatever the insurance covers and then they pay their co-pay or co-insurance.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So just doing that process, I think when they're on the floor seeing patients and then having to switch gears and do the math of like what this, here's my recommendations, all that, I think that part kind of stresses them out. How much of it is templated? Most of it's done. Like as far as the, so we have an Excel.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah, yeah, it's all Excel spreadsheet. We can punch in a number. We have a financial calculator for that.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So if I were to prioritize my constraints, what I think they are, number one, I would say is probably lead flow. I think that we could do better in that department. It's not consistent. When I had one location, it was really easy to predict that and to change the outcome pretty quickly. But as we've scaled, I'm having a tougher and tougher time, you know, scale the marketing, right?
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Perfect, yeah. I mean, do you think that would work? I think so. Okay. And then if they ask, like, hey, why do you need my insurance? I'll find us $29. Then we'll say, like, hey, just in case the doctor thinks he can help you, we just want to know all your insurance, et cetera.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
The highest close rate probably, I would say Capitol Hill.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
The doctor has a lot of certainty. No, no, no. Percentage difference. Oh, so let's say Auburn is, let's say they're averaging about 55, 60%. Okay. And then Capitol Hill might be at like 80%.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
okay no i mean they're both okay yeah they're terrible yeah they're not terrible but if you look at um because because a lot of these people have insurance so their entry level uh like financial is not like super high on some of them sure so the ones that are those ten thousand markets you have zero out of pocket yeah i mean you're gonna you're gonna have a hundred percent yeah so kind of yeah so this is how i would so i would imagine that the packages themselves are going to be
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah. Is that about right? Yeah. And then also the fact that I think if a clinic sees a lot of those 100% coverage ones, then they kind of skip, then they start, they don't work on your sales skills for the ones that are, and then they can say, oh, these are crappy leads or shitty leads or whatever. But you just, because you have to work a little bit for them.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So I think just creating that training, that's on me to train them and role play more.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So they're kind of looking at a teleprompter almost like, okay, got it.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So I would say that's like a big one for us. Second one would be like our sales infrastructure. Because we are 75% insurance-based, there's so many different plans out there, right? So when the patient comes in, we have to determine what kind of insurance they have by verifying it and then make a customized plan based off of that.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Would you have the doctor do the sales process or do you think, do you think it's okay to train them how to be good at sales? Do you think of having like a patient coordinator do the sales? You know what I mean? Cause like, yeah. Cause there's, there's, they always have some, uh, you know, reservations. Yeah. You know how doctors are compared to like a regular.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Um, Like if you have a doc that doesn't have a lot of confront or conviction, a lot of times the manager will. So I don't know if it's better or if it matters.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah, that would be the most important position in the office at that point.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
because you're not spending very much yeah i know you know it wasn't until i had to do this process i was like we could i mean because the return is so high on some of those things and if i i mean i would spend like a million dollars a month on google adwords if i could yeah yeah so how do we like i guess that would be one thing to increase well the first thing i would just just literally tell them like i need you to double the ad spend and i need you to find more keywords okay so just find more for me got it um
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So if there's a way to streamline that into one day, I think it would be much more effective for us. When I personally practiced, I was able to do it in one day, but I'm having a tough time training my doctors to be able to do that. Number three, scaling issues. So just centralizing the marketing has been a challenge for us. Limited employee pool, right?
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
And then one thing that helps us on that, I think is we're pretty good about getting reviews. We have more reviews than everybody in our cities. Oh, that's great. And then I think that helps with the local SEO, but Yeah. And I guess the big question is like with ad spend, a lot of these, so the agencies that we hire, like they work with many chiropractors, right?
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So those most chiropractors don't do what we do, which is sell packages of 2,400. They do visit to visit, which is a nightmare. So I think that they base our ad spend, they're recommending our ad spend based on that. But my return on it is so much higher than the average guy.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
And when would you consider bringing that all in the house? Because I kind of, I hate dealing with these
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah. And would you recommend doing this? I do it in this order. For locations also, should I start with one? Because would you do Google Aspen and the Facebook at the same time?
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So Google Ads, you can probably increase across all of them because you're . Yeah, because when I had one location, I mean, we did none of this stuff. I mean, all I did was guerrilla marketing. But you can't scale that. It's so hard to scale that.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So right now we're not expanding, but when we do expand, it's harder to find a doctor obviously than a regular person.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So this is great cost. So you have six you start. What did you do before this? Oh before the clinics. So I opened my first one in 2007. Oh, so you're a chiro? Yeah, I am. Oh, I didn't even know that. So I practiced until 2012, one clinic. What'd you do in that clinic, top line, bottom line? Three million, and top line, and bottom line is probably about 1.7. Yeah, great.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
But yeah, so then it was burning me out, though. So you're like, I'm going to
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
other people out yeah so then i started building houses so then i started building houses and i was making good money off that for like eight years um like luxury homes and but i saw my main clinic and had associated in there it was it was doing okay um and then 2021 i thought that we're 2020 i thought the market was gonna tank sure so then i thought hey what can i do with
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
My clinic, there must be something I can do bigger than just one clinic, right? And then started talking to some of my friends that were... Learned about M&A and... Yeah, like one of my really good friends founded Valley Village. Another one, his dad found Cinnabon. So then I started thinking like a little different. In locations, in terms of rolling things together. Yeah, they started it.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah, and then I've got to put one of my guys in there. So the hiring pool is a lot smaller for me than it would be for other people. But that's not an issue right now. I don't think it's a pressing issue for us until we start expanding. Yeah, got it.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
They started those, they're the original founders of those companies. Super cool. And then, so just giving their perspective on things and what I should do to grow. And then they told me, hey, you should open up, if you can replicate it. open up multiple practices and sell to private equity.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Awesome. Thank you so much. Appreciate that. Thank you.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
People operations, so obviously when I had one location, it was really easy to control the standard, right? But as we expand, it's harder and harder to have that same standard. So let's see the numbers. So going over the numbers again, so top line revenue, 5.2 million last 12 months, profit 1.2, net margin is about 23%. Our CAC is about 700. Our lifetime value is 3,400.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So that's 4.8 to 1 LTV to CAC ratio. Marketing spend, we're spending about 1,500 to 2,000 per location right now. The short rate's 80%, close rate's 71%, and our annual ad spend on marketing is about 110,000. Huh, okay.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
I do. Okay, sweet. So this is our Facebook data. I was able to put together like our 12-month numbers for all the clinics for AFPEN. And then for as far as the challenge that we have is because we're insurance-based, we don't get paid for like 30, 60, 90 days after. So I had to go back and I picked Q2 for three clinics. So these are the numbers for those three clinics in quarter two.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Do you buy those or do you open up organic? So far, I've bought all of them. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. But I think moving forward, we're going to change our strategy a little bit. Yeah. So who do you help specifically? So our key demographic that we help is 35 to 65-year-old men and women that have some kind of condition that we can help with, whether it's pain, discomfort, or loss of movement.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Okay, so why is Kent so much better? Yeah, I don't know. That's what I want to replicate. That's where we don't have consistency. Is that your first location? That's our number one, yeah. It's not our first location. It's our third location, but it's probably our number one right now. Is the dock there different than the other docks? Is he good at sales? He's good, but he's about the same.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
I would say that culture of that team is really good. I think that's one thing that stands out.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah, great question. So Kent would have a higher proportion of those $10,000 cases I was talking about, because that's blue collar. And then Capitol Hill is white collar, so it's got less of those case averages that are really high. I would say that's one thing.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
I would say Everett has more of those 10,000 cases than Kent does. Does that make sense? Interesting. So I didn't calculate that into the Facebook marketing and the Google audience. Oh, so you didn't include that. Okay.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
It's a good market for those, but I don't like to be too dependent on one source of patient, if that makes sense. I don't want to be too heavy on those auto accident cases in the location.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
This is our Google data. Yeah, so this is from Google AdWords.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
I don't think I am. I work with a third-party company on this, and I basically go off their recommendations. I personally would love to spend more, obviously, on this because they're returning so high. And these people are in immediate need of help, so they're much easier. Our case acceptance goes up much higher with these patients. High intent, yeah. Yeah.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
The sales process, yeah. So we have a two-day process, right? So day one, patient comes in, we do a consultation, we take x-rays, we'll do an exam.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah, so Google, they will call directly into our, we have a centralized call center that we have. So the call in.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Click to call or click to schedule on our web page. Do you know what the split is? Is a lot of it call or is like? I'm just curious. Yeah, I don't know the answer to that. OK, no worries. That's a good question.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah, they need to be employed. Insurance or cash? We're about 75% insurance. Oh, interesting. Okay, got it. So how do you help them? So the way we help them is when someone comes into our office, we'll design a custom treatment plan for them. That might be over a period of 60 to 90 days. It might include chiropractic, rehab, and spinal decompression.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
They don't, but that's the thing I'm thinking of adding in so we can get on top of that.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So then they schedule them the next available time. We try to get them in same day or next day, right away.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah, no, they just schedule. They can schedule online and then they can make, they can confirm.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
I try to reduce as much friction as possible.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah, so we do three text messages, and then we do a phone call. If they don't respond to a text message, we do a phone call the night before. To confirm. And then we'll do another one two hours before their appointment.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
We don't pull them off the calendar, but we kind of expect them not to. Just like double book, kind of? Yeah, exactly. OK.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Now what? They come in for their appointment. We'll do a consultation. So we have a patient coordinator that gets the preliminary data. Okay, so it's like an assessment? Yep.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Kind of like half your closure framework. Okay. So they'll do the first half of that on there. And then we'll take x-rays. We'll do an exam. And then we'll tell the patient that, hey, we need to process these films or these x-rays. And then we need to get you back in tomorrow so we can go over the results of the x-ray. Okay. Yeah, that's realizing people. Yeah, that's us. Okay.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
And then, so then we'll release them for, we'll still do treatment that day. We'll do a light treatment and then we'll have them come back the next day. And by then we'll have everything verified and then we'll have a customized plan for them. And then we'll present the financial. Interesting. Yeah.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah, so they'll still pay. Usually they'll have a copay. So that's why we have to verify all that information, right? So it gets complicated with the insurance. If it was just cash, it would be so easy. But because the insurance is there, we have to verify if they have coverage, and then we'll charge them a copay. And it's different for every single person.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
But our cash fee for that would be like $99, for example. OK. OK.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
got it what's the uh you said you're running 23 margins what's the what are the what's the best facility run what's the worst facility run margins wise the best facility run right now i would say is kent um right out of these ones six go back one or two there should be six on there yeah okay so we got us all in there so our two lower lowest performing are auburn and federal way all right um our two top performers right now are kent and everett and in the middle are capitol hill and bellevue
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So spinal decompression kind of differentiates us from a lot of our competitors because it's a niche service that we offer for people that have disc related injuries.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah. And just a disclaimer, like these other, like Auburn and Federal Way are like my newer locations. So like the ad, so my email is probably even higher than this, but it's just the first six months we had to eat a lot of profit. How old? Auburn is about a year old and Federal Way is about 14 months.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah, so like from when they click on an ad.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
So hey Alex, my name is Raymond Kooner. I own ChiroFirst of Washington. So we're a chain of chiropractic clinics in the greater Seattle area. So just a little bit about my business. We currently have six brick and mortar locations in the greater Seattle area. Trailing 12 months revenue, 5.2 million. EBITDA of around roughly 1.2 million. And our net profit is about 23%.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Yeah, exactly. Cool. Well, how do you make money? So basically on the front end, we offer a free consultation. So then when the patient comes in, our packages can range from $2,400 to $3,600 over a 60 to 90 day period. We're primarily a reoccurring revenue model. And roughly one out of every seven of our patients, they come in for a larger case value.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Do you think it's good to go, because with Facebook, people aren't necessarily going on Facebook and Oh, my back's hurt and I got, like, you know how Google AdWords is like, oh, my back's fucked up, I need to call somebody. I think so.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Got it. What's the landing page look like? So the landing page, so it's just that Insta form, that form on Facebook, right? Uh-huh. And that goes to a calendar on GoHighLevel? And then they just schedule on, like we have.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Scheduler and then we double book for Facebook because the show is lower for Facebook. So basically we give them like certain times in the day where they can schedule. So they'll schedule their own appointment. And then we put it into our, then we have to manually put that into our schedule, right. Oh, you manually, you have to basically transfer them over? Into this, into our EHR.
The Game with Alex Hormozi
Helping A Chiro Scale Past 6 Locations | Ep 837
Okay, got it. Because it's not connected to our EHR. Okay, understood. That's for Facebook. Google's a little different. Google would be kind of like this, like where they can schedule online. On a page, you mean?