Rob Watson

with the US-UK relationship and NATO at the heart of it, can somehow still be salvaged.

British voters seem relatively on side. I mean, it's helped by the fact that there are no great political divisions in the UK over defence spending and over support for Ukraine. Will British voters like the idea of more spending on defence and maybe squeezes on budgets For domestic spending, no doubt that will be difficult.

British voters seem relatively on side. I mean, it's helped by the fact that there are no great political divisions in the UK over defence spending and over support for Ukraine. Will British voters like the idea of more spending on defence and maybe squeezes on budgets For domestic spending, no doubt that will be difficult.

But the case that Sir Keir Starmer is sort of beginning to make is to say to the British people, hey, look, you know, we thought when the Berlin Wall came down, we were going to be living in different times. I thought that, he said, as a young man, the shackles of history coming off. But look, Russian tanks rolled into Ukraine. We are not living in those times. We need to act differently.

But the case that Sir Keir Starmer is sort of beginning to make is to say to the British people, hey, look, you know, we thought when the Berlin Wall came down, we were going to be living in different times. I thought that, he said, as a young man, the shackles of history coming off. But look, Russian tanks rolled into Ukraine. We are not living in those times. We need to act differently.

It is a big change, Jackie, but in a funny sort of way, it represents a toughening after a softening on the previous government. Let me explain.

It is a big change, Jackie, but in a funny sort of way, it represents a toughening after a softening on the previous government. Let me explain.

So the last Conservative government had introduced what many thought was pretty draconian measures in 2023, which they thought might violate UN conventions on refugees, essentially saying if you came to the UK in a small boat, no matter how good your claim was, no matter how deserving you were for refugee asylum status, you would not be considered because you're

So the last Conservative government had introduced what many thought was pretty draconian measures in 2023, which they thought might violate UN conventions on refugees, essentially saying if you came to the UK in a small boat, no matter how good your claim was, no matter how deserving you were for refugee asylum status, you would not be considered because you're

you had arrived here, as the government thought, illegally. The new Labour government has repealed that, but it's toughening things by saying, look, even if you've got asylum status, even if you've been considered, yes, you're a legitimate refugee, in most cases, you will normally refuse the next step of being considered for citizenship if you came here illegally.

you had arrived here, as the government thought, illegally. The new Labour government has repealed that, but it's toughening things by saying, look, even if you've got asylum status, even if you've been considered, yes, you're a legitimate refugee, in most cases, you will normally refuse the next step of being considered for citizenship if you came here illegally.

Well, I guess you could divide it into two, Jack. There's those more to the left or on the sort of human rights, civil rights side who would say this was terrible. So, for example, you've got several Labour MPs saying this is crazy because it would turn refugees into second class citizens. You've got the Refugee Council saying that's a group that, if you like, promotes the rights of refugees.

Well, I guess you could divide it into two, Jack. There's those more to the left or on the sort of human rights, civil rights side who would say this was terrible. So, for example, you've got several Labour MPs saying this is crazy because it would turn refugees into second class citizens. You've got the Refugee Council saying that's a group that, if you like, promotes the rights of refugees.

So it just doesn't make any sense at all. I mean, if people have come here, surely you'd want them to be full participants in society and give them citizenship if they've earned it.

So it just doesn't make any sense at all. I mean, if people have come here, surely you'd want them to be full participants in society and give them citizenship if they've earned it.

On the other side, on the right, if you like, you've got the Conservative Party, the former governing party, and Reform, the sort of populist party of the right, saying the Labour government should not have softened the rules in the first place about considering people arriving in small boats. So, if you like, the new Labour government finds itself caught from both sides.

On the other side, on the right, if you like, you've got the Conservative Party, the former governing party, and Reform, the sort of populist party of the right, saying the Labour government should not have softened the rules in the first place about considering people arriving in small boats. So, if you like, the new Labour government finds itself caught from both sides.

Quite an abrupt change, isn't it, that you heard from his previous position. So who is he? As you were saying, he's a I guess you describe him as an elder statesman within the governing Labour Party. I suppose some would say he was a bit of a Svengali figure, someone who just seems to be incredibly good at the dark arts of politics, someone who's very clever, very charming.

Quite an abrupt change, isn't it, that you heard from his previous position. So who is he? As you were saying, he's a I guess you describe him as an elder statesman within the governing Labour Party. I suppose some would say he was a bit of a Svengali figure, someone who just seems to be incredibly good at the dark arts of politics, someone who's very clever, very charming.

And as you said, has worked for both Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and now, of course, Sakhir Starmer.