Rob

And they might decide not to attack any of those countries, even if they thought there was only a 5% chance that the U.S.

or France would come to their aid because what they stand to gain is so much less than what they stand to lose potentially.

Yeah, so I guess maybe you could modify and say that Europe will end up ceding to Russia everything that it can't convince Russia that there's some meaningful probability that they would be risking nuclear war over.

They don't necessarily have to convince them that it's a certainty.

Yeah, Hugh's explanation, I think, he says that basically the U.S.

spent enough money and, like, put enough equipment in Europe to convince Russia that it actually was serious.

And I guess...

he would say like the president's also convinced the US public that it was in their interest to like draw this line and be willing to bear those costs.

And it's just that conversation hasn't happened today.

And it's like maybe not credible that the US would view it as worth the cost anymore.

Final question.

I guess if you were briefing US officials or I guess NATO officials today on one way that they're kind of getting the ceasefire negotiations wrong or overlooking something in their approach to ending the war, what sort of messages would you focus on?

My guest today has been Samuel Charot.

Fingers crossed we'll finally see the end of this war in the next year or two or three.

I hope so.

Thanks for having me.

It's been a pleasure.

Sometimes, when you feel like it.

Nude feet.

Nude feet.