Roman Mars

When we come back, the story of the last successful champion of Article 5 amendments.

I mean, mostly what you describe is the history of amendments not passing, but there are a few kind of, I don't know, amendment heroes in your story who like get a bunch of stuff done.

And I was particularly sort of enchanted by Senator Birch Bayh, who's the last kind of amendment warrior that existed before the nail in the coffin of Article 5.

Could you describe Birch Bayh and his mission in life?

No, I want them to be tails.

This is great.

I mean, it's so depressingly tit-for-tat political rather than big ideas.

And there's a sense that he spent all of his political capital doing this and there's going to be no one else

I mean, maybe there's going to be someone else like him, but but that is a depressing notion that it basically is a place that you kill your political career is in amendments.

Yeah, yeah.

I find this when I read history books of things I actually know the outcome of, and I still get to that point where I'm just like, just don't go to the theater.

just don't go.

And you have these moments in your book that are like that, that are just like, they just hurt your heart in a way because you think, oh, it could be so different, you know, just for these little tiny things.

So even though there is this sort of one-way ratchet of the Article 5 that, as you discuss in your book, and regionalism is on the rise and amendments become less and less possible, you do kind of end on an optimistic note about a sleeping giant that might awaken.

And how do you maybe see amendment happening in the future and why might you be optimistic about such things?

Yeah.

Well, Jill Lepore, thank you so much for talking with us.

Thank you so much.

I'm such a fan of your work.

I really appreciate your time.