Rory Stewart

And then when you became the finance minister and the bailout is happening,

Is the bailout happening to help Greece, or is the bailout happening to help the same banks that got you into the euro in the first place?

Okay, Yanis, Rory, quick break and then back for more.

But then you also had this big moment with the referendum, essentially, where the Greek people said, no, no more austerity.

We can't take any more.

It wasn't exactly that.

So they were... Under conditions of moral therapy.

They were rejecting what the Europeans were insisting that you did.

Can I just pick up on something you said earlier?

You said the reason why Europe is going down the drain is

But the crisis that you dealt with

And the global financial crisis alongside it.

Am I right that you're basically saying that that is what has in part led to the kind of global mess that we're in now?

That is partly what gave us Trump.

It's partly what gave us Brexit.

It's partly what's giving us the rise of the far right in Europe.

And it's because of what you call socialism for the banks and austerity for the people.

Rory mentioned a couple of your books, and your book Technofudalism speaks to something that we talk about a lot on the podcast, which essentially is the way that our politics and economies are changing without most people even understanding the pace of change and the scale of change.

And what you've written in Technofudalism is essentially...

I don't know how to put this, but you're essentially saying our politics is broken, our economy is broken, and a very, very small number of people are benefiting massively from it, and the rest of us are just slaves.