Rory Stewart

How would we do that architecture?

What kind of leadership would we be looking for?

It's a huge shift.

I keep coming back to this very, very weird moment where

Europe and the UK didn't manage to get their defense agreement together.

So a lot of Starmer's speeches about it.

It came down to the fact that Europe wanted the UK to pay a few billion and the UK thought it was too much.

But what you expect at a moment of crisis is political leaders not to get caught up in that sort of stuff, to see the big picture, not to get dragged down into a few billion here, a few billion there, some rules here, but really think we've got to make this work.

But it doesn't feel like he's got it yet.

I don't think he sees how serious it is.

I don't think he sees how radical the rupture is.

I think he's just caught up.

This is a speech, a lot of this is about Russian threats to Europe and they need to defend ourselves.

And he's worried about Farage.

I don't think he's actually really thinking about how the US has completely shifted the entire global architecture.

for Trumpism.

This is no longer a world that you need to be coded.

Possibly.

I mean, we've just interviewed Gavin Newsom, but actually, as I say, there are many world leaders who demonstrate that you can be pretty... Well, Carney's really the only... Carney and Macron are really the only ones.

I think Mertz went a long way further than Stammer.