Ross Douthat

So I do think... Sometimes they said they wouldn't date a Republican like that.

Well, that's that, too.

That line may have also... There's that, too.

And I took that personally.

No, sorry.

That's... So I'm trying to basically sketch out what you might call a kind of ideal...

pro-life vision before we descend to the realities of politics right now.

So just the last question on that is, in an ideal world, what kind of exceptions around abortion are permissible from your point of view, from a pro-life perspective, if any?

Let's talk about sort of the bigger realities.

Roe was overturned in 2022 in the Dobbs decision.

The issue has currently returned fully to the states.

Pro-life laws were on the books in a number of states.

But just to give my own summary of where things stand, and you can react to this, I think the pro-life movement has been maybe more successful in some ways than I expected in defending some of those existing pro-life laws, mostly in red and conservative states.

And it was also successful in basically averting defeat in 2024 when the Democratic Party was campaigning very straightforwardly on a promise to restore abortion rights.

And there was a sense that, you know, the election could be a referendum on abortion, but in the end,

um donald trump was elected president so those are in a sense pro-life victories at the same time when the abortion issue has come up for a referendum including in republican leaning states the pro-life movement has lost there have been i'd say at best piecemeal attempts to pass kind of pro-family or mother supporting legislation of the kind you were suggesting that you support

Trump himself has very conspicuously kept the pro-life movement at arm's length, has accepted a system where abortion pills are available by mail across the country, and into the bargain overall, and this started before Dobbs, but the abortion rate has risen in America as a whole.

So you can react to that analysis or just tell me, was the pro-life movement prepared for the fall of Roe?

So I don't think do you think the Supreme Court should have ruled that the unborn have a right to life under the 14th Amendment?

Okay, that's a fairly pessimistic narrative, though.