Ross Douthat

We're calling them observation, right?

But they have – they clearly – the work you're doing clearly has the function of a kind of political protest against this kind of immigration enforcement.

I want to try and sort of separate different things that ICE is doing.

Like how much of –

The backlash, the community fear, all of this is based around the kind of paramilitary presentation of ICE.

The fact that they're masked, the fact that they are dressed in what looks more like military gear than police gear.

Like if ICE were doing the same general kinds of things, going into neighborhoods, looking for people, but was presenting as normal police, would that create a different environment in Minneapolis, do you think?

But this is – I mean, that was also – I agree it was a political move, but it was also, I think –

A specific reaction to stories about fraud related to the Somali community, right?

That that was sort of, that was what made Minneapolis a target.

And the president's rhetoric is sort of downstream of those issues.

And so those are some of the- This was the feeding our futures scandal.

Exactly, yes.

Just so listeners are aware.

Yeah, I mean, I guess what I'm trying to get at a little bit here is

The country is having a debate about immigration enforcement, and I'm trying to figure out how much of the debate is about tactics and the show and the rifles and how much of it is about just the legitimacy of enforcement itself, right?

Because if you talk to a spokesman for the administration, an advocate for these things, they would say, look –

The primary goal of what we're doing is deporting people who have criminal records.

Liberal cities and liberal states have not cooperated with the federal government.

And from their point of view, essentially, they're doing legitimate law enforcement work.