Ruben Azizian

And also, this is a reputational thing.

You can also use multilaterals to align and cooperate with some in the Five Eyes on issues where you don't necessarily agree with others in the Five Eyes, particularly the dominant power.

I think everyone has to agree, whether we like it or not, that in the intelligence world, there are basically no untouchable friends, if I say.

We know that countries have spied on each other.

You know, you read Merkel's book and how she was spied on by the United States.

I can say the same back to Russia situation.

Russia and China are very tightly connected today, but

There are Chinese spies being caught in Russia.

Now, that's not publicized, but that's the reality.

And I'm sure Russia continues to do spying in China and elsewhere.

So if we agree with the cynicism of intelligence work as an important part of foreign policymaking, then I think Five Eyes should be kept and New Zealand has a place in it.

that foreign policy discussion more open, more transparent.

It's not just about respectful professionals in AMFET or an experienced minister.

It is a time, I think we are at the crossroads, which way we go.

And we need major discussion and debate.

We don't have a foreign policy strategy as such.

The documents that are produced by MFED are produced by MFED with some experts, but we need a

Public conversation, because we know that there will be time when the AUKUS tier two thing will be resolved one way or the other.

We don't want a foreign policy issue to become too explosive for this country.

And to avoid that, we need some level, I mean, we can't have a full consensus, some level of consensus and understanding about what New Zealand should be.