Rutger Bregman

Up until the 70s, we were using a lot of our increased productivity, our economic growth to work less. And back then, a lot of sociologists and psychologists were saying, oh, my God, the great challenge of the future is going to be boredom. Like, what are people going to do with all that leisure time? Like, we've got to find out what is the good life.

Up until the 70s, we were using a lot of our increased productivity, our economic growth to work less. And back then, a lot of sociologists and psychologists were saying, oh, my God, the great challenge of the future is going to be boredom. Like, what are people going to do with all that leisure time? Like, we've got to find out what is the good life.

And I would say that possibility is still there for us, especially now with another wave of automation that is about to happen. At the same time, we should never underestimate capitalism's extraordinary ability to come up with more BS jobs. Right? I cite one poll that found that around 25% of people in rich countries think that their own job is socially useless.

And I would say that possibility is still there for us, especially now with another wave of automation that is about to happen. At the same time, we should never underestimate capitalism's extraordinary ability to come up with more BS jobs. Right? I cite one poll that found that around 25% of people in rich countries think that their own job is socially useless.

Well, there's no reason why that can't go up to 30%, to 40%, to 50%. I guess my point in this long rant is that there's not just a dystopian possibility. There's also a beautiful utopian possibility of how we use our technological capabilities to make a much, much better world. Just like, honestly, we've done in the past.

Well, there's no reason why that can't go up to 30%, to 40%, to 50%. I guess my point in this long rant is that there's not just a dystopian possibility. There's also a beautiful utopian possibility of how we use our technological capabilities to make a much, much better world. Just like, honestly, we've done in the past.

I think people find it really uncomfortable to acknowledge that there are these massive differences in how effective people are and how talented they are. This is something Peter Thiel talks about in his book, that there's this power law distribution going on. So some people are really 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 times as effective as others.

I think people find it really uncomfortable to acknowledge that there are these massive differences in how effective people are and how talented they are. This is something Peter Thiel talks about in his book, that there's this power law distribution going on. So some people are really 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 times as effective as others.

So then it makes a lot of sense to be hunting for those really talented entrepreneurial people who can get so much done. And I think that is sometimes uncomfortable for people who really like to believe that we're always in this together and everyone is equal and we can all contribute in our own little small ways. I think that quite a few people in my bubble don't.

So then it makes a lot of sense to be hunting for those really talented entrepreneurial people who can get so much done. And I think that is sometimes uncomfortable for people who really like to believe that we're always in this together and everyone is equal and we can all contribute in our own little small ways. I think that quite a few people in my bubble don't.

they find it hard to acknowledge. And they say, oh, that's the great man theory of history. That's been debunked long ago, right? That's that patriarchal, maybe even almost like racist idea that a couple of white men, that they changed the world. Well, it's obviously not just a couple of white men. It's like everyone can be morally ambitious in that regard.

they find it hard to acknowledge. And they say, oh, that's the great man theory of history. That's been debunked long ago, right? That's that patriarchal, maybe even almost like racist idea that a couple of white men, that they changed the world. Well, it's obviously not just a couple of white men. It's like everyone can be morally ambitious in that regard.

But it is often a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens and not everyone. I think that at the point, at the same time, we got to acknowledge that it's very hard to predict in advance. Who's going to be that big builder? And moral ambition can be contagious. But I think that Peter Thiel is basically right, that there are very clear power laws in the distribution of talent.

But it is often a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens and not everyone. I think that at the point, at the same time, we got to acknowledge that it's very hard to predict in advance. Who's going to be that big builder? And moral ambition can be contagious. But I think that Peter Thiel is basically right, that there are very clear power laws in the distribution of talent.

This is the world we live in. It's incredibly unequal. And we could fix that. And even in wealthy countries, we're just at the beginning of history. We have so much progress ahead of us, possibly, but it's up to us. Hey, David.

This is the world we live in. It's incredibly unequal. And we could fix that. And even in wealthy countries, we're just at the beginning of history. We have so much progress ahead of us, possibly, but it's up to us. Hey, David.

Well, as always with these interviews, you've got a long list of things like, oh, I wish I would have said that, and why didn't I say this, and blah, blah, blah. But this is great. We have a rematch. No, no, no.

Well, as always with these interviews, you've got a long list of things like, oh, I wish I would have said that, and why didn't I say this, and blah, blah, blah. But this is great. We have a rematch. No, no, no.

No, it doesn't feel like that.

No, it doesn't feel like that.