Rutger Bregman

I like that. So I think this is going to be the last book for quite some time, actually, that I'll write. As you know, books are a great excuse to go on a publicity tour. And if you're starting something like the School for Moral Ambition, then yes, a book is very useful to have, right? It's like this banner, a rallying cry that helps to bring a lot of people together.

I like that. So I think this is going to be the last book for quite some time, actually, that I'll write. As you know, books are a great excuse to go on a publicity tour. And if you're starting something like the School for Moral Ambition, then yes, a book is very useful to have, right? It's like this banner, a rallying cry that helps to bring a lot of people together.

But the main reason why we co-founded the school is indeed we wanted to find the Thomas Clarksons of our time to work on some of the most pressing issues that we face. And if you ask me, like, okay, what is the moral equivalent of... fighting slavery today, I guess I would say fighting factory farming. And a couple of years ago, that's actually what I envisioned doing.

But the main reason why we co-founded the school is indeed we wanted to find the Thomas Clarksons of our time to work on some of the most pressing issues that we face. And if you ask me, like, okay, what is the moral equivalent of... fighting slavery today, I guess I would say fighting factory farming. And a couple of years ago, that's actually what I envisioned doing.

So here I was, a relatively successful author, and I was like, okay, people like me. I want to burn my reputation on something that's important. So I spent quite some time in the Netherlands going on talk shows, advocating for farm animals. And at some point I was like, is this really the most effective thing? Right.

So here I was, a relatively successful author, and I was like, okay, people like me. I want to burn my reputation on something that's important. So I spent quite some time in the Netherlands going on talk shows, advocating for farm animals. And at some point I was like, is this really the most effective thing? Right.

Maybe I could build something much bigger and really scale it up because now I'm just a one man's army and people like Thomas Clarkson, they got a lot done because they brought many more people into the movement. So I honestly feel that I'm doing the most ambitious thing I could be doing. But if you have better ideas, David, then please push me.

Maybe I could build something much bigger and really scale it up because now I'm just a one man's army and people like Thomas Clarkson, they got a lot done because they brought many more people into the movement. So I honestly feel that I'm doing the most ambitious thing I could be doing. But if you have better ideas, David, then please push me.

It surprised me a lot as well, honestly. So I didn't come up with this cause area. We went to our researchers and we asked them to come up with a list of some of the most tractable, neglected and important issues that we face as a species. And yeah, in Europe, fighting big tobacco came out on top.

It surprised me a lot as well, honestly. So I didn't come up with this cause area. We went to our researchers and we asked them to come up with a list of some of the most tractable, neglected and important issues that we face as a species. And yeah, in Europe, fighting big tobacco came out on top.

A lot of people think that we've already won this fight, that that was something we did in the 90s, which is not true at all. The cigarette is the deadliest artifact that humans have ever invented, deadlier than atomic bombs or the machine guns. So... Maybe it's not very sexy. Maybe it's like, oh, it's a little bit weird. Like, why would you choose that? But for us, that's sort of the point.

A lot of people think that we've already won this fight, that that was something we did in the 90s, which is not true at all. The cigarette is the deadliest artifact that humans have ever invented, deadlier than atomic bombs or the machine guns. So... Maybe it's not very sexy. Maybe it's like, oh, it's a little bit weird. Like, why would you choose that? But for us, that's sort of the point.

That's how you can make much more impact, by convincing people to work on things that may not be most in fashion, but that are actually super important and very neglected.

That's how you can make much more impact, by convincing people to work on things that may not be most in fashion, but that are actually super important and very neglected.

Yeah, yeah, sure. So climate change, I would say, is super tractable. We've got the research, we've got the solutions, and luckily we've got many millions of people working on it right now. I would advise people to really look for the most neglected bits of the fight against climate change. That's why we chose to work on the food transition, because this is extraordinarily neglected.

Yeah, yeah, sure. So climate change, I would say, is super tractable. We've got the research, we've got the solutions, and luckily we've got many millions of people working on it right now. I would advise people to really look for the most neglected bits of the fight against climate change. That's why we chose to work on the food transition, because this is extraordinarily neglected.

So look, the fact that it's got to be tractable, that you need to have some idea on how to actually make progress, that does not mean that it needs to be easy.

So look, the fact that it's got to be tractable, that you need to have some idea on how to actually make progress, that does not mean that it needs to be easy.

Actually, if you think you can achieve your goals in this lifetime, then you're not thinking big enough. That is really what inspires me about the abolitionists, the suffragettes. I mean, of the 68 women who came together at Seneca Falls in 1848, the first women's right convention in the United States, only one was still alive when women finally got the right to vote across the country.

Actually, if you think you can achieve your goals in this lifetime, then you're not thinking big enough. That is really what inspires me about the abolitionists, the suffragettes. I mean, of the 68 women who came together at Seneca Falls in 1848, the first women's right convention in the United States, only one was still alive when women finally got the right to vote across the country.