Ryan Urban

Our goal is to be very negative this year.

That's right.

And I separate up some expansion.

So upsell would be a new product line.

And then horizontal expansion is more like, hey, you have other properties or the countries that we're going to expand to with the same product.

Well, we spend very little.

Most of our stuff comes inbound.

And you notice we don't have a blog.

I think we shut down almost all of our social media.

We just did our first trade show last month.

We haven't spent a dollar in our life on paid.

Actually, for our brand term, I think we put like $500 into it because someone else was bidding on it.

But we haven't like not like real AdWords spend.

Right.

Salespeople aren't traditionally counted in your normal CAC there.

But yeah, so if it was like SDR's other stuff, that would be... Our CAC last year was over 20 to 1, which is CAC LTV.

But LTV is... The way the math works in that number, I just don't like the...

The formulaic definition of it, I think, is really stupid.

No, I like to look at the CPA more than CAC to LTV.

Okay, what's your CPA?