Sarah Paine

So I would say it is the security pact that Indira Gandhi signs in 1971.

Right.

Oh, well, I remember the Cold War vividly.

We felt we were losing it most of the way through.

Well, we always felt, well, A, because the propaganda, right?

Because they're all living beautifully.

And then they're quite good.

They're very good at propaganda.

So the United States had massive racial problems.

Think about 1960s.

Martin Luther King are pointing out

hideous problems with this country.

Civil rights demonstrations everywhere, anti-Vietnam War demonstrations everywhere, the women's movement, the environmental movement.

There are loads of unhappy people pointing out all of these problems, which is a good thing because then the United States starts working on fixing some of these problems.

Of course, they're not fixed, but there's improvement on them.

Whereas in Russia, no one can travel, so you can't see how unbelievably poor they are.

And so you go to Moscow, and you think, well, this is a plausible city.

Well, there is only one plausible city in the place, or maybe it's two, St.

Petersburg.

Or, well, it's Leningrad in those days.