Sarah Smith

American presidents have always told lies. Think of Richard Nixon and Watergate. Think of Bill Clinton and sex. The current president says plenty of things, well, without evidence, and plenty fear that it is becoming acceptable for politicians on both sides to spread falsehoods. So, does it matter? How much do Americans care? And is there a solution that might hold lawmakers accountable for the lies that they tell in office? Welcome to AmeriCast.

Hello, it's Sarah in the BBC's Washington Bureau. And it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of AmeriCast in London, England. And I should say it is five past three in the afternoon here in London on Thursday. And I, Sarah, am going to be joined by the guest today, which is a real pleasure. He's actually going to be here. He's not here yet, but he is, Andrew Weissman. He played a very big part in Robert Mueller's investigation into the Russia interference in the 2016 election. He's got a new book out, which has this really interesting argument.

which we are going to challenge him on, which suggests somehow that politicians could be held to account by law if their lies damage democracy. And when you look back, Sarah, at the various efforts that were made to hold Donald Trump to account by law in the run-up to the 2024 election, I think it is fair to say that the jury is out on whether it works.

And the issue, I suppose, the kind of the broader issue is whether, well, two things. Number one, whether law works or lawfare, as it's sometimes called. Can you, should you in a democracy be going after people in law? And there's a lively debate about that. And I say kind of flippantly that it didn't work with Donald Trump, but there are plenty of people who think it didn't.

Se pitäisi todennäköisesti toimia, ja se voisi myös toimia vähentämällä, mikä on hieman erilainen asia, mutta vähentämällä, joka voisi edelleen tulla tulevia vuosia. Mutta sitten toinen asia on, että miten olisit saanut uuden luvun?

that really brought people to account. And that's one of the things that Andrew Weissman wants to talk about. And I was saying that he has experience in this area. So not only as a former federal prosecutor, but he did play a big part in the Robert Mueller investigation. I suppose we should kick off by reminding people about what that investigation was and why it was so important, so seminally important, although it didn't quite come up with the goods that many people hoped it would.

And they've also twisted it round to kind of face in the opposite direction, haven't they? So last year, the now former director of national intelligence, this is Tulsi Gabbard, who's very recently stepped down. She made an extraordinary allegation about Barack Obama, didn't she? Not only Obama, actually, several of his top officials as well. She said there was a treasonous conspiracy to highlight that Russian interference in 2016. Let's listen to what she alleged.

And of course it doesn't stop with what he said about past elections. This is in a sense why all of this is so important, isn't it? It is what he might do now in terms of future elections, including the one that's coming up this year. And he has repeatedly called, hasn't he, for elections to be nationalized. What exactly does that mean? Here he is in the Oval Office just a few months ago.

do think that honesty, ethics, the whole idea of politicians telling the truth has reduced. No surprise, I suppose, that they think that. But there was a Pew Research survey, wasn't there, relatively recently, 56% of US adults now believing that the overall level of ethics and honesty in politics has fallen since 2025. So quite a

...precipitiv fall in a sense and recently. And you've got that old thing, the Washington Post thing. And I know the Washington Post is, well at least until Jeff Bezos took it over, isn't a great friend of Donald Trump. But they had this tally, didn't they? This more than 30,000 tally, didn't they, during the first term of all the false or misleading statements that Donald Trump personally has made.

And we would be in the business of calling other people liars as well. I mean, something I'm going to bring up with Andrew is Joe Biden. I mean, an absolutely plain case, isn't there? Remember when he said that inflation had been 9% when he took office? And he repeated that claim again and again and again. And it was debunked again and again. Inflation was actually, I think, between 1% and 2% when he took office.

So are we to call Joe Biden a liar as well? I think almost in terms of political criticism and journalism, I'm not sure where labelling people in that way actually gets you. Although it satisfies people when they hate a particular politician, it satisfies them and they kind of demand it too, but I think there are reasons not to do it.

Okay, that's a good moment at which to turn to our guest, who is the former federal prosecutor Andrew Weissman, author of Liar's Kingdom, How to Stop Trump's Deceit and Save America. It's a book out now, I think I'm right in saying on both sides of the Atlantic, and it looks at the dangers of politicians playing fast and loose with the truth, but of course very much in the shadow of one particular politician, and it's a politician that Andrew Weissman has followed for some time, because he is a podcaster as well, and one of the early aspects of

Me getting to know him, as it were, was on the airways when he was talking about the prosecution of Donald Trump. He had an entire set of podcasts based on those prosecutions of Donald Trump in the early days when it was thought that he might be prosecuted and might even go to jail long before the 2024 election. Anyhow, Andrew Weissman, so good to see in person. It's great to be here. Yes, I do so many podcasts where it's remote. It's really nice to be in the same room as somebody.

Mentioning podcasts, I'm a real fanboy and I'm going to bring this out right at the beginning because I was a big fan of prosecuting Donald Trump, not the actual doing of the prosecuting, you understand, because I went for the BBC, but your podcast that you did, prosecuting Donald Trump, during all of those court cases that we talked about repeatedly on our podcast, you had so much detail and so much insight because of who you are and the stuff that you've done.

Well, I had a great collaborator, Mary McCord, but both of us had worked for decades at the Department of Justice. What is the plan that you have? Because you come out in your book with a plan that I think will really interest people. It's a plan not just to stop Donald Trump, but it is a plan to stop anyone who wants to lie, what, anywhere in public office? Explain what you want.

Voitko tuoda yhä ympäristön? Olet kuitenkin sanonut, että se toimii. Olemme hieman skeptisoineet, ja ajattelen erityisesti siitä, kuinka näkyisi jo Bidenin tapauksessa, jossa olisi paljon, jotka sanoisivat, että hän lupasi, mutta paljon, jotka sanoisivat, ettei hän lupasikin. Se näyttää minulle, että se olisi vääränä, jos laittaisin sen vähemmän, jotta pääsisimme järjestykseen. Mutta luulen, että toinen argumentti on se,

Se ei toimi. Ja mielestäni sinulla oli sellainen mahtava podcasti Donald Trumpin korvaamiseen, jota olin yleensä kuullut, kun kävelin autolla. Ja taas ajattelin, että tämä on todella tullut jotain. Ja minä olin yleensä sanonut meidän podcastissa, Amerikassa, että Sarah ja minä olimme tehneet näitä pitkät keskustelut.

Is he going to go to jail? Will he need to have secret service people with him in jail? How does that work? Can you go for office? And in a sense, everyone fooled themselves into thinking that that lengthy legal process involving several cases was somehow going to do him down. Actually, it did the opposite.

Lähden viimeiseksi, jos pystyn, viimeiseen ajatukseen poliittisesta puolustuksesta, joka on puolustus, ja jota Donald Trump on käsitelty. Ja tietenkin hän oli puolustuskohtaisessa puolustuskohtaisessa puolustuskohtaisessa puolustuskohtaisessa puolustuskohtaisessa puolustuskohtaisessa puolustuskohtaisessa puolustuskohtaisessa