Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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Chapter 2: What historical examples illustrate politicians lying in the US?
American presidents have always told lies. Think of Richard Nixon and Watergate. Think of Bill Clinton and sex. The current president says plenty of things, well, without evidence, and plenty fear that it is becoming acceptable for politicians on both sides to spread falsehoods. So, does it matter? How much do Americans care? And is there a solution that might hold lawmakers accountable for the lies that they tell in office? Welcome to AmeriCast.
AmeriCast. AmeriCast from BBC News. I have four words for you. Turn the volume up.
Hello, it's Sarah in the BBC's Washington Bureau. And it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of AmeriCast in London, England. And I should say it is five past three in the afternoon here in London on Thursday. And I, Sarah, am going to be joined by the guest today, which is a real pleasure. He's actually going to be here. He's not here yet, but he is, Andrew Weissman. He played a very big part in Robert Mueller's investigation into the Russia interference in the 2016 election. He's got a new book out, which has this really interesting argument.
which we are going to challenge him on, which suggests somehow that politicians could be held to account by law if their lies damage democracy. And when you look back, Sarah, at the various efforts that were made to hold Donald Trump to account by law in the run-up to the 2024 election, I think it is fair to say that the jury is out on whether it works.
Chapter 3: How does Andrew Weissman propose to hold politicians accountable for lies?
Yes, yes. And I'm just running through a sort of mental rolodex now of all the politicians who could end up in trouble if lying in office and therefore potentially damaging democracy were to become a criminal offence. The courts could get very, very busy and not just in the United States, I think.
And the issue, I suppose, the kind of the broader issue is whether, well, two things. Number one, whether law works or lawfare, as it's sometimes called. Can you, should you in a democracy be going after people in law? And there's a lively debate about that. And I say kind of flippantly that it didn't work with Donald Trump, but there are plenty of people who think it didn't.
Se pitäisi todennäköisesti toimia, ja se voisi myös toimia vähentämällä, mikä on hieman erilainen asia, mutta vähentämällä, joka voisi edelleen tulla tulevia vuosia. Mutta sitten toinen asia on, että miten olisit saanut uuden luvun?
that really brought people to account. And that's one of the things that Andrew Weissman wants to talk about. And I was saying that he has experience in this area. So not only as a former federal prosecutor, but he did play a big part in the Robert Mueller investigation. I suppose we should kick off by reminding people about what that investigation was and why it was so important, so seminally important, although it didn't quite come up with the goods that many people hoped it would.
Chapter 4: What was the significance of the Mueller investigation into Russian interference?
Se on se, mitä Donald Trump kutsuu russia-russia-russia-kysymykseen, ja hän sanoo sitä niin usein, että se on se, mitä minulle tuntuu myös. Se oli yllättävä former FBI-johtaja Robert Muellerin kysymys russalaisen ympäristöön vuonna 2016, kun Donald Trump oli ensimmäisenä valittu. Se oli kontroversiollista silloin. Donald Trump oli täysin yllättävä, että tämä kysymys oli olemassa, kun hän oli White Houseissa, ja hän oli myös todella, todella miettinyt.
that this could be the end of his presidency. He saw this as the equivalent of what happened to Richard Nixon or something, that this was going to really damage him, and he became obsessed by it. In the end, what Mueller found was that there had been coordinated Russian interference in the election, but he wasn't able to substantiate that it had been coordinated with the Trump campaign, but he also didn't completely clear them either. He said there were some questions around that, and he hadn't been able to find the evidence, and so that has just
He were eaten away at Donald Trump ever since. And Robert Mueller became a real hate figure of his. He died reasonably recently. And it's not often you're shocked by a social media post by Donald Trump, but when he said, I'm glad he's dead on the same day that Robert Mueller died, that was pretty shocking.
And they've also twisted it round to kind of face in the opposite direction, haven't they? So last year, the now former director of national intelligence, this is Tulsi Gabbard, who's very recently stepped down. She made an extraordinary allegation about Barack Obama, didn't she? Not only Obama, actually, several of his top officials as well. She said there was a treasonous conspiracy to highlight that Russian interference in 2016. Let's listen to what she alleged.
Chapter 5: How do false claims about elections impact democracy?
When you look at the intent behind creating a fake manufactured intelligence document that directly contradicts multiple assessments that were created by the intelligence community, the expressed intent and what followed afterward can only be described as a years-long coup and a treasonous conspiracy against the American people, our republic, and an attempt to undermine President Trump's administration.
Well, that sounds a little bit like Tulsi Gabbards thinking of something similar to what Andrew Weissman is going to talk to us about, doesn't it? That basically trying to criminalize things that people did as a result of getting involved in politics here. So that, I mean, that is very, very interesting. But it's exactly why this stuff doesn't work, isn't it? I mean, we'll put this to Andrew, but it just seems to me on both sides, as soon as you go down this path, you're in trouble, aren't you?
Se tulee tietenkin olemaan erittäin vaikeaa, mutta on selvää nähdä, miksi hän esittelee tämän poliittisessa keskustelussa ja miksi se on erittäin mielenkiintoinen idea, koska se ei ole vain Mueller-Russia-kysymyksessä, jossa on asioita Donald Trumpin kautta. On paljon asioita, joita hän sanoo, jotka eivät ole faktaalisesti tarkoitettuja, jotka eivät pystytä takaisin evidenssiin, jotka ovat niitä, joita me olisimme yleensä, yleisölle puolustukselle, sanoneet lievistä.
You know, there are all sorts of them every day. Some of them are unimportant. Some of them are just boastful, for instance. And maybe they don't really harm the fabric of democracy. But then there are some that are deeply insidious. And the big lie, of course, which he continues to perpetuate, is that the 2020 election was stolen from him. That Joe Biden wasn't democratically elected, but there was a conspiracy to steal Trump votes and stop him returning to the White House.
A lot of people still believe it. That's a problem. People in public office, but also just members of the electorate, people who voted in 2024, who will be voting again in 2028, still believe that the system is fundamentally corrupt enough that the election could be stolen from Donald Trump. Investigations are still going on into that. We had an FBI raid of the election offices in Fulton County in Georgia just earlier this year, for instance, where they're still looking for evidence to try and prove.
that that crucial key state really voted for Donald Trump, despite the fact that the votes were counted three times, counted by hand every single time.
It came up that Joe Biden was the person who had been returned by Georgia. But there's something deeply insidious about that lie about the 2020 election. It's what led to the Jan 6 riots, of course, in 2021. And it undermines the whole basis of American democracy. If you've got a substantial number of voters who just don't believe that the process works.
And of course it doesn't stop with what he said about past elections. This is in a sense why all of this is so important, isn't it? It is what he might do now in terms of future elections, including the one that's coming up this year. And he has repeatedly called, hasn't he, for elections to be nationalized. What exactly does that mean? Here he is in the Oval Office just a few months ago.
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Chapter 6: What are the implications of criminalizing political lies?
Katsokaa Detroitia, katsokaa Pennsylvaniaa, katsokaa Philadelphiaa, katsokaa Atlantaa, katsokaa joitain paikkoja, joilla on horvallinen korruptio valmennuksissa. Ja kansainvälinen hallitus ei tarvitse sitä. Kansainvälinen hallitus pitäisi liittyä. Nämä ovat kansainvälinen hallituksen agenssit, jotka tarkoittavat valinnan. Jos he eivät voi tarkoittaa valinnan legaalisesti ja todellisesti, niin joku muu pitäisi ottaa vastaan.
Haluan kysyä, Justin, kuka hän ajattelee, että joku muu pitäisi olla, ehkä Yhdysvaltojen presidentti. Mitä hän tarkoittaa, kun puhutaan yhdysvaltojen federalisoitumisesta, on se, että tällä hetkellä kaikki 50 valtiolla tekevät omaa valtojaan ja omaa prosessiaan, joka tarkoittaa valtoja, he ovat yksityiskohtaiset ja sitten tietysti kaikki tulevat keskustelemaan.
ja jälkeen valmistelija päättyy, kuka on voinut presidenttiä. Donald Trump on puhuttu useita kertoja siitä, että haluaa ottaa tämän ylös. Haluaa, että suomalainen hallitus, josta hän on valmistellut, jatkaa valmisteluja. Se on todella huomannut paljon ihmisiä, että tämä on osa jonkinlaista suurempaa suunnitelmaa, joka yritetään muuttaa valmistelun tuloksia. Siellä on joku, joka sanoo asioita, jotka eivät ole totta 2020-valistelun kanssa. Hän on huomannut sitä, mutta haluaa myös muuttaa järjestelmää,
Joten se, mitä tapahtui vuonna 2020, jolloin Biden tuli valmistumaan tai Donald Trump ei tuli valmistumaan, ei voisi tapahtua taas. Ihmiset ovat todella, todella miettineet, että hän haluaisi muuttaa sääntöjä itsensä tai hänen suosituksensa. Ja hän olisi saanut jotain, joka ei ollut totta. Kyllä, ja on tärkeää sanoa ihmisille enemmän suuremmin.
do think that honesty, ethics, the whole idea of politicians telling the truth has reduced. No surprise, I suppose, that they think that. But there was a Pew Research survey, wasn't there, relatively recently, 56% of US adults now believing that the overall level of ethics and honesty in politics has fallen since 2025. So quite a
...precipitiv fall in a sense and recently. And you've got that old thing, the Washington Post thing. And I know the Washington Post is, well at least until Jeff Bezos took it over, isn't a great friend of Donald Trump. But they had this tally, didn't they? This more than 30,000 tally, didn't they, during the first term of all the false or misleading statements that Donald Trump personally has made.
Kyllä, ja niissä on niitä, jotka eivät välttämättä ole totta. Mutta sitten on myös niitä, joita mietitään, onko Donald Trump uskottanut niitä, vaikka ei ole evidenssi, jotta se pysähtyisi. Ja siinä päästään aika mielenkiintoisempaan alueeseen siitä, mitä me teemme ja emme ja emme voi sanoa hänelle, tai todennäköisesti muille poliitikkoille, joille uskomme sanoa jotain, joka ei ole totta.
So certainly we at the BBC will say some things are not true or are a lie, but we don't tend to call Donald Trump a liar, because that means that we would have to understand what his intent was as well as what the facts are.
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Chapter 7: How does the podcast address the ethics of labeling politicians as liars?
And we would be in the business of calling other people liars as well. I mean, something I'm going to bring up with Andrew is Joe Biden. I mean, an absolutely plain case, isn't there? Remember when he said that inflation had been 9% when he took office? And he repeated that claim again and again and again. And it was debunked again and again. Inflation was actually, I think, between 1% and 2% when he took office.
So are we to call Joe Biden a liar as well? I think almost in terms of political criticism and journalism, I'm not sure where labelling people in that way actually gets you. Although it satisfies people when they hate a particular politician, it satisfies them and they kind of demand it too, but I think there are reasons not to do it.
Kyllä, ja uskon, että sanomme melkein joka viikolla Amerikassa, että Donald Trump on muuttanut sääntöjä ja tehty kaikkea erilaisesti, mutta emme tiedä, onko muita ihmisiä saavuttanut samaa asiaa kuin hän. Ja tämä on todennäköisesti vielä yksi asia, jossa en usko, että jopa hänen suurimmat ympäristönsä ajattelevat, että kaikki, mitä hän sanoo, on täysin tarkka. Mutta he ovat täysin onnellisia, kun on joku, joka käyttää myötätaitoja paikallaan, jotta pystyy tekemään asiaa.
Will we then see that this is a new norm in politics that will spread internationally, or when he goes and his particular individualistic way of doing things is gone from the stage, will we once again, as you say, revert to business as usual in a slightly different way with a greater presumption that
politicians that are at least trying to tell you the truth. There are so many ways in which the political stage, when Donald Trump has left it, is going to be fascinating to see what kind of lasting imprint he has made on how politics is conducted, not just in America, but around the world.
Okay, that's a good moment at which to turn to our guest, who is the former federal prosecutor Andrew Weissman, author of Liar's Kingdom, How to Stop Trump's Deceit and Save America. It's a book out now, I think I'm right in saying on both sides of the Atlantic, and it looks at the dangers of politicians playing fast and loose with the truth, but of course very much in the shadow of one particular politician, and it's a politician that Andrew Weissman has followed for some time, because he is a podcaster as well, and one of the early aspects of
Me getting to know him, as it were, was on the airways when he was talking about the prosecution of Donald Trump. He had an entire set of podcasts based on those prosecutions of Donald Trump in the early days when it was thought that he might be prosecuted and might even go to jail long before the 2024 election. Anyhow, Andrew Weissman, so good to see in person. It's great to be here. Yes, I do so many podcasts where it's remote. It's really nice to be in the same room as somebody.
Mentioning podcasts, I'm a real fanboy and I'm going to bring this out right at the beginning because I was a big fan of prosecuting Donald Trump, not the actual doing of the prosecuting, you understand, because I went for the BBC, but your podcast that you did, prosecuting Donald Trump, during all of those court cases that we talked about repeatedly on our podcast, you had so much detail and so much insight because of who you are and the stuff that you've done.
Well, I had a great collaborator, Mary McCord, but both of us had worked for decades at the Department of Justice. What is the plan that you have? Because you come out in your book with a plan that I think will really interest people. It's a plan not just to stop Donald Trump, but it is a plan to stop anyone who wants to lie, what, anywhere in public office? Explain what you want.
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Chapter 8: What conclusions can we draw about the future of political honesty in the US?
It could apply to federal officials, presidents, congresspeople, but also at the state level, governors and legislators within the 50 states of the United States. And in a nutshell, to cut to the chase,
It is to when you have a material lie, not an opinion, not a mistake, but a material lie such as, and this is the example I use, that there was fraud in the election and I really won. And you could show that that is not true and the person knows it's not true.
että se on kriminalisoitunut. Miten te olisitte jollekin jollekin jollekin jollekin jollekin jollekin jollekin jollekin jollekin jollekin jollekin jollekin jollekin
Toinen on, onko se itseasiassa väärin. Esimerkiksi, mitä joe Biden, joka me puhuttiin, tiedettiin silloin? Oliko se vain ongelma, vaihto? Oliko hän seurannut sen? Juuri. Eli näitä asioita. Ja sitten, mikä on se argumentti siitä, miksi hän ajatteli, että se oli hyvä asia sanoa? Hän pitäisi tehdä tätä argumenttia johtopuolella.
Well, if you were charged. And so one of the ways, though, to cabin this, which I talk about, is that you can imagine a law that, in my view, sort of goes overboard. Our president has been reported to have made false statements about how he did as an undergraduate in school about the crowd size. Right, and you wouldn't do any of that. And those things do not have to be criminalized.
Let me bring Sarah. Does that argument hold weight with you, Sarah? It makes lots of sense and I think a lot of us could apply some kind of common sense test as to whether or not Donald Trump lying about previous achievements really, really mattered as opposed to saying things that are not true about the 2020 election fraud.
Mutta mitä me näemme tapahtumaan Yhdysvalloissa tällä hetkellä, on politisaatiota kaikista asioista justiinsyhteisöstä, jopa ennen kuin meillä on tällainen lainsäädäntö tullut esiin. Esimerkiksi nykyisimmät uudistukset ovat, että justiinsyhteisö tutkii E. Jean Carrolla.
the woman who sued Donald Trump for sexual assault and defamation. And now his Justice Department appear to be going after her, saying that she committed perjury in some of the statements that she made during that case. It looks, from the outside, nakedly political, as do a number of the other criminal investigations that are being pursued by the DOJ at the moment, like against James Comey, for instance, the idea that he was threatening the president's life when he tweeted a picture of seashells that said 8647.
Jos te olisitte lainsäädäntöä, jonka te suosittelevat, Andrew, onko se ei-varmuus poliittisen hallituksen kautta, kuten se, jonka meillä on nyt hallituksella, käyttää tämä kuitenkin uudelleen asiaan, joka vaikuttaa ympäristöihin ja arvokkaituisiin?
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