Scott Detrow

It has been a little more than a week since Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky met with President Donald Trump in the Oval Office. Vice President J.D. Vance was in the meeting, too, and so was Secretary of State Marco Rubio. The nation's top diplomat was sitting on an Oval Office couch...

Mostly silent as Trump and Vance berated the Ukrainian leader and in the process made it clear just how much of the established global order they are ready to upend. An order that for most of his career, Rubio has defended and worked to help hold up. So what changed and what do those changes mean?

Mostly silent as Trump and Vance berated the Ukrainian leader and in the process made it clear just how much of the established global order they are ready to upend. An order that for most of his career, Rubio has defended and worked to help hold up. So what changed and what do those changes mean?

Mostly silent as Trump and Vance berated the Ukrainian leader and in the process made it clear just how much of the established global order they are ready to upend. An order that for most of his career, Rubio has defended and worked to help hold up. So what changed and what do those changes mean?

To answer these questions, we're going to talk to professor of international politics at Tufts University's Fletcher School, Daniel Dresner. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Let's start by rewinding just a little bit. You wrote an opinion piece in The New York Times about Rubio's political evolution back in December before he took office.

To answer these questions, we're going to talk to professor of international politics at Tufts University's Fletcher School, Daniel Dresner. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Let's start by rewinding just a little bit. You wrote an opinion piece in The New York Times about Rubio's political evolution back in December before he took office.

To answer these questions, we're going to talk to professor of international politics at Tufts University's Fletcher School, Daniel Dresner. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Let's start by rewinding just a little bit. You wrote an opinion piece in The New York Times about Rubio's political evolution back in December before he took office.

And you asked which Marco Rubio is going to show up for the job, the democracy-promoting optimist or a more inward-looking anti-global pessimist? A month in, do you feel like you have a verdict?

And you asked which Marco Rubio is going to show up for the job, the democracy-promoting optimist or a more inward-looking anti-global pessimist? A month in, do you feel like you have a verdict?

And you asked which Marco Rubio is going to show up for the job, the democracy-promoting optimist or a more inward-looking anti-global pessimist? A month in, do you feel like you have a verdict?

You know, Marco Rubio is not the only Republican by far to change big positions and align them with what President Trump is promoting. But I think this particular issue of Ukraine, and you have that visual that rocketed around the internet of Rubio kind of slumped into the couch almost high, like, absorbing into the couch like the Homer Simpson meme.

You know, Marco Rubio is not the only Republican by far to change big positions and align them with what President Trump is promoting. But I think this particular issue of Ukraine, and you have that visual that rocketed around the internet of Rubio kind of slumped into the couch almost high, like, absorbing into the couch like the Homer Simpson meme.

You know, Marco Rubio is not the only Republican by far to change big positions and align them with what President Trump is promoting. But I think this particular issue of Ukraine, and you have that visual that rocketed around the internet of Rubio kind of slumped into the couch almost high, like, absorbing into the couch like the Homer Simpson meme.

This particular issue of Ukraine, Rubio and so many other Republicans were so out there in terms of defending this country, standing up for this country, making sure the United States was continuing to fund this country. Then you see how he tweets about what happened in the Oval Office afterwards, saying President Trump was standing up for the United States.

This particular issue of Ukraine, Rubio and so many other Republicans were so out there in terms of defending this country, standing up for this country, making sure the United States was continuing to fund this country. Then you see how he tweets about what happened in the Oval Office afterwards, saying President Trump was standing up for the United States.

This particular issue of Ukraine, Rubio and so many other Republicans were so out there in terms of defending this country, standing up for this country, making sure the United States was continuing to fund this country. Then you see how he tweets about what happened in the Oval Office afterwards, saying President Trump was standing up for the United States.

That particular issue, I feel like, is a hard one to square. How do you feel about it?

That particular issue, I feel like, is a hard one to square. How do you feel about it?

That particular issue, I feel like, is a hard one to square. How do you feel about it?

There's this long line of various high-profile cabinet secretaries who... more traditional Republicans hope can be a moderating influence. I think the first Secretary of State under Trump, Rex Tillerson, is a good example of that. And he ended up being humiliated when he was fired and then mocked by President Trump and others in the administration.