Sean Illing

with lots and lots of noise so that it's very disorienting and very confusing and people do not know what to believe. And I wrote that it's basically a way of manufacturing nihilism or at least cynicism. And it works because of the way we do business. We race for content, for clicks, for attention, and we act like

with lots and lots of noise so that it's very disorienting and very confusing and people do not know what to believe. And I wrote that it's basically a way of manufacturing nihilism or at least cynicism. And it works because of the way we do business. We race for content, for clicks, for attention, and we act like

greyhounds chasing a slab of meat every time Trump would unleash one of his unhinged tweets or whatever. I mean, it was maddening. And it's still maddening. But this gets to something we try to say in the book, which is that what the media thinks it's doing is not really what it's doing. Certainly not anymore. A lot of the press is still wedded to this 20th century model of journalism.

greyhounds chasing a slab of meat every time Trump would unleash one of his unhinged tweets or whatever. I mean, it was maddening. And it's still maddening. But this gets to something we try to say in the book, which is that what the media thinks it's doing is not really what it's doing. Certainly not anymore. A lot of the press is still wedded to this 20th century model of journalism.

where we conquer lies by exposing them. We deliver truth to a country desperate to hear it and people make informed decisions and yada, yada, yada. But this just doesn't seem to be what's going on. There's too much bullshit to debunk, too many conflicting narratives to untangle. The information space has been shattered into zillion pieces thanks to the internet.

where we conquer lies by exposing them. We deliver truth to a country desperate to hear it and people make informed decisions and yada, yada, yada. But this just doesn't seem to be what's going on. There's too much bullshit to debunk, too many conflicting narratives to untangle. The information space has been shattered into zillion pieces thanks to the internet.

And the audience is so fragmented and self-sorted. A huge chunk of the country doesn't really trust public institutions or the mainstream media, and they're not listening. And a lot of it feels like it's just a political class talking to itself. And it's just, I know that's kind of depressing, but that has been my experience.

And the audience is so fragmented and self-sorted. A huge chunk of the country doesn't really trust public institutions or the mainstream media, and they're not listening. And a lot of it feels like it's just a political class talking to itself. And it's just, I know that's kind of depressing, but that has been my experience.

Right. And that's what was so maddening about flooding the zone. The story I globbed onto in the piece I wrote was, I guess, the 2017 story about Hillary Clinton selling Uranium One to the Russians or something like that. I mean, it was a complete horseshit, but it was a story that Bannon had fed to the press and it kind of took off. But that's basically all it is, right? I mean, we are...

Right. And that's what was so maddening about flooding the zone. The story I globbed onto in the piece I wrote was, I guess, the 2017 story about Hillary Clinton selling Uranium One to the Russians or something like that. I mean, it was a complete horseshit, but it was a story that Bannon had fed to the press and it kind of took off. But that's basically all it is, right? I mean, we are...

part of our business model is selling conflict this is especially true on tv and this is something that really comes into fruition in the 90s with the birth of cable news and kind of horse race politics conflict just works right it's politics is theater politics is sport And to the extent that media has profited from that model, we've also helped instantiate it, right?

part of our business model is selling conflict this is especially true on tv and this is something that really comes into fruition in the 90s with the birth of cable news and kind of horse race politics conflict just works right it's politics is theater politics is sport And to the extent that media has profited from that model, we've also helped instantiate it, right?

We've also helped make politics in the minds of people who are consuming our content think that's what politics is. And the thing that's so crazy about flooding the zone is that it works because people are doing their jobs the way they're supposed to, the way they've always been done, right? Something is out there. And if it's bullshit, you debunk it. And you tell people why it's not true.

We've also helped make politics in the minds of people who are consuming our content think that's what politics is. And the thing that's so crazy about flooding the zone is that it works because people are doing their jobs the way they're supposed to, the way they've always been done, right? Something is out there. And if it's bullshit, you debunk it. And you tell people why it's not true.

But the problem is that, like you were just saying, in the process of debunking something, you are also amplifying it. You're pumping it out there. It's getting tattooed in people's consciousness. And if you do that enough, it just becomes very dizzying and confusing to people. And it's a way of hacking the way media works. And I think it was extraordinarily...

But the problem is that, like you were just saying, in the process of debunking something, you are also amplifying it. You're pumping it out there. It's getting tattooed in people's consciousness. And if you do that enough, it just becomes very dizzying and confusing to people. And it's a way of hacking the way media works. And I think it was extraordinarily...

effective and no one really seems to have an answer to it. I certainly don't.

effective and no one really seems to have an answer to it. I certainly don't.

I have no idea. None. I really don't. It's part of my frustration with this. It's just, it is very hard to see a way out, absent some kind of radical paradigm shift. And I have no idea what that would even look like.

I have no idea. None. I really don't. It's part of my frustration with this. It's just, it is very hard to see a way out, absent some kind of radical paradigm shift. And I have no idea what that would even look like.