Shamita Basu

Mostly men, mostly white, in tactical gear with tattoos, bandanas and patches displaying their beliefs.

And if my guest today, Scott Payne, were in one of those photos, you probably wouldn't be able to tell him apart from the rest of them.

Scott is a retired FBI agent who spent part of his career undercover in American hate groups.

He's out with a new book called Codename Pale Horse, How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis.

It's a remarkable account, not only of his singular career, but also of the many criminal and hate groups that are operating in America today.

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, as of 2023, there were 165 active white nationalist groups in the United States, the highest number ever recorded.

During Scott's time in the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force, he worked several cases inside these groups.

In one case, his undercover persona actually went through the ceremony to become a Ku Klux Klan member.

For another, he befriended a young extremist who idolized Dylann Roof, the man who killed nine people in a Charleston church in 2015.

In that case, Scott was able to deter his target from committing murder.

Scott worked on this book with Canadian journalist Michelle Shepherd, who also produced a podcast series about his story.

Scott's career spans 28 years, and he started by going undercover with organized criminal groups before transitioning into extremist hate groups.

I sat down with Scott to hear about his time as an undercover agent, what he learned, and what drew him to this work.

And what kinds of crimes and investigations require undercover work?

Anything.

Really?

Right, right.

That's not the crime.

One of Scott's most memorable cases was when he embedded in a motorcycle gang called the Outlaws.

Now, the Outlaws were a tight-knit criminal group with many enemies, especially the Hells Angels.