Shankar Vedantam

Bobby Parmar, welcome to Hidden Brain.

Shankar, thanks so much for having me.

Bobby, some years ago, you went on a 14-day backpacking trip to Wyoming.

I understand that you are someone who is prone to allergies.

Was this backpacking trip a good idea?

I'm not so sure.

I am allergic to everything outdoors.

And in 2017, in a fit of rebellion, I think I decided to do this 14-day backpacking trip in the Wind River Range in Wyoming.

This was a group from a course called the National Outdoor Leadership School, or NOLS.

And so we were a group of 14 strangers.

Some folks were younger, aspiring to leadership positions.

I wanted to do this in part because it was something I had never done before.

I am, as I said, allergic to everything outdoors.

And this was a way of pushing myself outside of my comfort zone, literally.

And there were people who wanted to spend more time outdoors.

There were avid backpackers and people like me who were brand new.

Bobby's group varied widely, not just in backpacking experience, but in fitness levels.

Half were pretty solid in terms of hiking and carrying a 50-pound backpack, and others were relatively new.

And that first week was a huge transition for half of us.

You're up pretty early, between 5.30 and 6, and you're making breakfast as a camp.