Steph McGovern

But you've been one and they listen to you.

I've forgotten, you know, I was thinking, what's the best slogan?

Because, I mean, a lot has happened since they've come in and there's been a lot of change.

Probably not change they would have wanted.

So then, because I am an optimist,

And I know I don't sound like it sometimes, particularly when I'm talking about this, but it is hard when you live in a place and, you know, you've grown up in a place as you have yourself, Alan, where things don't improve and you see people really graft in their whole life and things just don't feel like they're getting better.

That is politically the reason why we've seen a lot of, you know, the growth in form and things like that is because people feel left behind and feel like no one so far has made any difference to their lives.

But I'm optimistic because I think you're right.

I think at the end of the day, despite policy, often it can be people mobilising and, you know, communities who are fed up, who make the difference.

And there's lots of all the unsung heroes, like a charity I work in Middlesbrough is focused on helping girls who are most likely to become needs, focusing on helping them and finding, you know, giving them inspiration, aspiration.

That's all going on in a kind of individual siloed local level.

Yeah.

What I guess my point is, is so do you think we are going to see real change then?

I know you can't tell us everything you're going to say to the government yet because you're still figuring it out.

But, you know, careers, that's really important, as you've said, that parity of esteem around vocational training has to change.

Yes.

Because that's where the skills gaps are.

And also, I guess as a parental, the parents element in all of this, how do you mobilize those parents who are disengaged with education for their kids because they didn't see any value in it themselves?

I agree.

There's so many elements to this, but do you genuinely think we're going to see change?