Stephen K. Bannon

Pope Francis, one of the criticisms was that not only was he not remotely interested in what his cardinals had to say, he actually didn't want them physically getting together and talking amongst themselves because he feared the possibility that they were going to lobby against him, that they were going to resist some of his reforms.

With regards to Leo, even if he's under no obligation whatsoever to

to listen to his cardinals.

And they'll put out a report and he'll accept the report, no doubt.

And it will be somewhat of a cosmetic exercise, at least on the point that he's not terrified of the idea that his cardinals are going to get together and talk over the water cooler.

Just for reference to our largely American audience, Cardinal Radcliffe was leader as a world, what's the title?

The head of the Dominican order, the Franciscan, the Dominican mendicant order.

I forget his precise title as the head of that, but this was the order founded 800 years ago by St.

Dominic really to protect the orthodoxy in doctrine and dogma

It was founded, I think, against the algebensian heresy in the south of France.

And to see what that has come... Francis appointed this guy as a cardinal over... I think it was over the voting age of the conclave voting age of 80.

So it was a symbolic manoeuvre.

And as you say, he's a heterodox figure.

Just quickly on this point, Frank, just give me...

Just give me 60 seconds, right?

Firstly, I just want to recap what you said as a difference in leadership style between Pope Leo and Pope Francis.

Francis was absolutely terrified of resistance in the church because he was doing a lot of his more scandalous reforms.

He was claiming was being requested by the bishops, by the cardinals, by the laity.

We've since...

found out, thanks to some sterling work by Diane Montagna, that that was all literally lies.