Stephen Macedo

So maybe I'll just say a couple of words about that to start with. I actually had started to work on a larger project on several topics on which I thought progressives were not paying enough attention to arguments coming from the other side. And that included immigration, abortion, and then COVID as well. And as soon as I...

So maybe I'll just say a couple of words about that to start with. I actually had started to work on a larger project on several topics on which I thought progressives were not paying enough attention to arguments coming from the other side. And that included immigration, abortion, and then COVID as well. And as soon as I...

gotten deeply into it, it was clear that the COVID policy issues themselves, the COVID crisis itself was large enough. And moreover, that people were not engaging in critical reflection and the sort of reckoning we've tried to do. So this is meant to be in part a book about policy choices, policy deliberation, and in many ways, policy mistakes perhaps that were made during COVID.

gotten deeply into it, it was clear that the COVID policy issues themselves, the COVID crisis itself was large enough. And moreover, that people were not engaging in critical reflection and the sort of reckoning we've tried to do. So this is meant to be in part a book about policy choices, policy deliberation, and in many ways, policy mistakes perhaps that were made during COVID.

But there's also a larger kind of institutional question in the background and principled question in the background, which is how did the institutions function, which is supposed to be helping us to catch mistakes and correct our mistakes, to seek the truth on difficult matters. How did they function under COVID? And I mean, of course, journalism, science, and the academy more broadly.

But there's also a larger kind of institutional question in the background and principled question in the background, which is how did the institutions function, which is supposed to be helping us to catch mistakes and correct our mistakes, to seek the truth on difficult matters. How did they function under COVID? And I mean, of course, journalism, science, and the academy more broadly.

And so the biggest theme that runs through the book, I think, is that these, as we call them, truth-seeking institutions did not function as well as they should have during COVID. That there was a premature policy consensus. There was an unwillingness to re-examine assumptions. And there was an intolerance of criticism and divergent points of view that emerged fairly quickly in the pandemic.

And so the biggest theme that runs through the book, I think, is that these, as we call them, truth-seeking institutions did not function as well as they should have during COVID. That there was a premature policy consensus. There was an unwillingness to re-examine assumptions. And there was an intolerance of criticism and divergent points of view that emerged fairly quickly in the pandemic.

and that hurt us, that hurt our policy responses, that hurt our ability to course correct over the course of the pandemic as we learned more and had greater reason to course correct.

and that hurt us, that hurt our policy responses, that hurt our ability to course correct over the course of the pandemic as we learned more and had greater reason to course correct.

Well, my experience was not unusual. I was in New Jersey, a blue state, and I went along with the messaging. I was busy with doing other things. Of course, we kept teaching online and doing our research online. But I didn't really investigate skeptically during the height of COVID itself in 2020, 2021. I started working on this book in 2022.

Well, my experience was not unusual. I was in New Jersey, a blue state, and I went along with the messaging. I was busy with doing other things. Of course, we kept teaching online and doing our research online. But I didn't really investigate skeptically during the height of COVID itself in 2020, 2021. I started working on this book in 2022.

and, frankly, have been kind of shocked on almost a daily basis in researching the book at the things I'm coming across and discussing with Francis. So, for me, it's been a kind of voyage of discovery, and I've been very surprised at what, you know, we've uncovered.

and, frankly, have been kind of shocked on almost a daily basis in researching the book at the things I'm coming across and discussing with Francis. So, for me, it's been a kind of voyage of discovery, and I've been very surprised at what, you know, we've uncovered.

Well, there were a number of pre-COVID pandemic planning documents anticipating a respiratory pandemic such as COVID turned out to be. One of them was published just in the fall of 2019, shortly before the COVID pandemic broke out. That was by the World Health Organization. It surveyed the range of non-pharmaceutical interventions, social distancing measures, school closures.

Well, there were a number of pre-COVID pandemic planning documents anticipating a respiratory pandemic such as COVID turned out to be. One of them was published just in the fall of 2019, shortly before the COVID pandemic broke out. That was by the World Health Organization. It surveyed the range of non-pharmaceutical interventions, social distancing measures, school closures.

Yeah, so it's everything other than vaccines and drugs. The whole suite of measures from hand washing, mask wearing, personal hygiene, staying apart, closing schools, restricting businesses, restricting public gatherings, not letting people go to church and so on.

Yeah, so it's everything other than vaccines and drugs. The whole suite of measures from hand washing, mask wearing, personal hygiene, staying apart, closing schools, restricting businesses, restricting public gatherings, not letting people go to church and so on.

Absolutely. Things that are often lumped under the word lockdown. And so those measures had been contemplated before they were investigated. That was the major subject of these pre-COVID pandemic plans. Obviously, getting a vaccine as soon as possible and administering it was something on which there was a consensus. But the controversial part of the policy was the non-pharmaceutical measures.

Absolutely. Things that are often lumped under the word lockdown. And so those measures had been contemplated before they were investigated. That was the major subject of these pre-COVID pandemic plans. Obviously, getting a vaccine as soon as possible and administering it was something on which there was a consensus. But the controversial part of the policy was the non-pharmaceutical measures.