Stephen Macedo

They pay no attention to the fact that Chinese had authoritarian powers to require people to be— bolted into their apartments in some cases. Literally, right. Yeah. And then Italy had the first national lockdown in the world.

They pay no attention to the fact that Chinese had authoritarian powers to require people to be— bolted into their apartments in some cases. Literally, right. Yeah. And then Italy had the first national lockdown in the world.

Not a democracy, right. So they showed it was possible. I mean, Italy showed that a Western population was willing to go along with a national lockdown. And that, I think, had a demonstration effect.

Not a democracy, right. So they showed it was possible. I mean, Italy showed that a Western population was willing to go along with a national lockdown. And that, I think, had a demonstration effect.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Another factor was the report that came out of Imperial College London, the optimistic modeling projections about non-pharmaceutical interventions. That's Neil M. Ferguson. His report projected something like 2 million deaths in the United States by August 2020.

Another factor was the report that came out of Imperial College London, the optimistic modeling projections about non-pharmaceutical interventions. That's Neil M. Ferguson. His report projected something like 2 million deaths in the United States by August 2020.

The reporter around the world, one of the most influential, it looks like, reports that was ever issued. And it was that that Anthony Fauci and Deborah Birx carried into Donald Trump's office, leading to a news conference on March 16th that recommended school closures and other measures.

The reporter around the world, one of the most influential, it looks like, reports that was ever issued. And it was that that Anthony Fauci and Deborah Birx carried into Donald Trump's office, leading to a news conference on March 16th that recommended school closures and other measures.

I mean, I think there was a general social fixation on the number of deaths, the spread of cases. We developed a kind of tunnel vision of the one indice that public health officials were focusing on was sickness and death from COVID. And these other matters were not highlighted by political leaders or by public health officials.

I mean, I think there was a general social fixation on the number of deaths, the spread of cases. We developed a kind of tunnel vision of the one indice that public health officials were focusing on was sickness and death from COVID. And these other matters were not highlighted by political leaders or by public health officials.

I don't see how it is if there are significant costs involved, including in the currency of life. These policy choices always involve a variety of values. And we have to not simply focus on the one indice of saving lives, I think.

I don't see how it is if there are significant costs involved, including in the currency of life. These policy choices always involve a variety of values. And we have to not simply focus on the one indice of saving lives, I think.

You know, look, early on, I think that the initial lockdown orders and those conditions of uncertainty and so on may have made some sense. But we learned things over the summer that should have helped inform the strategy and that should have at least been more vigorously debated.

You know, look, early on, I think that the initial lockdown orders and those conditions of uncertainty and so on may have made some sense. But we learned things over the summer that should have helped inform the strategy and that should have at least been more vigorously debated.

The success of the public health measures always depended upon public buy-in, public willingness to comply, a public willingness to trust and to go along. And there wasn't enough public deliberation about these matters. Too much power was accorded to narrow experts in public health and epidemiology in particular.

The success of the public health measures always depended upon public buy-in, public willingness to comply, a public willingness to trust and to go along. And there wasn't enough public deliberation about these matters. Too much power was accorded to narrow experts in public health and epidemiology in particular.

There should have been a wider conversation simply involving many more people with broader expertise, but it also should have involved ordinary people in the public who, after all, being the ones asked to make sacrifices in their own lives—

There should have been a wider conversation simply involving many more people with broader expertise, but it also should have involved ordinary people in the public who, after all, being the ones asked to make sacrifices in their own lives—