Terry Gross

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This is Fresh Air.

I'm Terry Gross.

Russell Vogt has been called the shadow president, including by my guest, journalist Andy Kroll.

Vogt is the director of the Office of Management and Budget.

Not the sexiest sounding title, but he's the architect behind the Trump administration's dismantling of federal agencies, slashing foreign aid, pausing or canceling over $400 billion for infrastructure and clean energy projects in blue states, ending the Justice Department's independence from the president, stuffing so many budget cuts in the so-called one big beautiful bill, and expanding the power of the president.

He was also one of the people behind Project 2025, which was intended to be a blueprint for a second Trump term, and that's what it's become.

Vogt describes himself as a radical constitutionalist.

Andy Kroll has been investigating how Vogt has been using his power and what his goals are.

Kroll covers the Justice Department and judiciary system for ProPublica, where he's written extensively about vote.

Kroll has an article in The New Yorker in collaboration with ProPublica titled Donald Trump's Deep State Wrecking Ball.

Kroll is also the journalist who first got access to and published the video of votes saying this back in 2023.

Okay, and there's one more Russell Vogt clip I want to play for you that will give you more of a sense of Vogt's goals and strategy.

When he was on the Tucker Carlson show on November 18, 2024, just 13 days after Trump was reelected, Carlson asked Vogt about his priorities.

This was on top of Vogt's list.

Well, Andy Crow, welcome to Fresh Air.

We have a lot to talk about.

Pleasure to have you.