Tom Holland

Everyone recognises him.

His long beard, his bristling eyebrows, his general expression of fun.

Well, that's the irony, isn't it?

I mean, there are kind of echoes between America and Iran throughout this entire conflict.

I mean, just to say about Khomeini's upbringing, that the background to it, you said that his father was killed in a brawl.

I mean, this is the period that build up to the First World War and the First World War itself.

And it is very violent.

And I think that when he ends up going to a seminary,

And I think that that provides him with a kind of refuge from the chaos of life outside and must be hugely formative in his association of Islam with peace.

He does, but philosophy is his real focus.

And it's a particular focus on Greek philosophy, so Aristotle and particularly Plato, and how they have been mediated by the kind of traditions of Islamic and specifically Shia thinking.

Exactly.

You know who he actually also reminds me of is Pope John Paul II, also a footballer, a poet, becomes a titanic religious leader of the 70s and 80s.

Certain parallel there.

Well, specifically, Dominic, the family of the prophet himself, because Ali is married to the daughter of Muhammad.

And so their sons, Hassan and Hussein, are the grandchildren of the prophet.

But they don't succeed.

They end up being killed.

And we'll come to that in a minute.

And the primal victims and martyrs in this belief system are Ali, the son-in-law of the Prophet, a caliph who had been assassinated.