Tracy Alloway

But you were there very early.

Did you feel vindicated by the 2020 shift?

This is the mission idea, right?

Yeah, the pendulum constantly swinging back and forth.

Have consultants become a substitute for state capacity slash routine slash administrative ability?

Right.

I always wonder how we got to the point where consultants are so big anyway, because it feels like every time you hire a consultant, it's almost an admission of failure on your part to be able to do something right.

And nevertheless, it's a widely accepted practice across governments.

Well, do you remember this came up in the episode we did about construction in New York and this idea that like one of the reasons it's so expensive and takes so long for like public funded projects is because consultants have no incentive to actually get the project done.

Yes.

People also argue for something like that, there's a value to having an external viewpoint, right?

Just going back to consultants for a second, and I think this is actually relevant to the discussion of having cooperation among different parts of the government on big projects.

But how much of the consultancy fetish just has to do with diffusing responsibilities?

So I always think back to the old saying about the purchasing manager thing.

You'll never get fired for buying IBM, right?

Like how much of it is just like, well, you know, I did my best.

I hired McKinsey.

What more can I do if it goes wrong?

It's McKinsey's fault.

You know, you mentioned the black box of the algorithms, which I think is a really interesting point.