Tristan Redmond

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The world order as we've known it is being upended. Great powers and strong men are trying to use their muscle and might to expand territory. And there is no better man to help us make sense of these tectonic shifts than the BBC's international editor Jeremy Bowen.

From the BBC, I'm Tristan Redmond in London. And I'm Asma Khalid in Washington DC. And today on The Global Story, the post-World War II era is over. What comes next? Could you introduce yourself, please? I'm Jeremy Bowen. I'm the international editor of BBC News. Thank you for joining us. Good to be back.

All this week we've been talking about spheres of influence around the world. We've looked at the American, the Chinese, the Russian spheres of influence, and we've looked at how they've been vying for influence in Africa. Today we're going to try and patch it all together.

as well as looking at parts of the world that we haven't talked about yet. So I wanted to just go back in time a little bit and set up where the idea of a rules-based international order came from. So last weekend, Jeremy, I found myself listening to a speech by Winston Churchill. Ladies and gentlemen, you're assembled. This is not normally the sort of thing I do on a Saturday, but my daughter...

The people of the United States cannot escape world responsibility.

To preserve peace and to forestall the causes of future wars. If there was going to be peace after the Second World War, there needed to be something that he called a world council. So I guess something resembling the UN Security Council. And then after the war, the Truman Doctrine happened. And it just so happens that this week is the 80th anniversary of the beginning of the UN Security Council.

So Jeremy, what do you make of that ambition to create this kind of international rules-based world order? Was it an admirable thing or was it misguided? It was of course admirable after the horrors of the Second World War and indeed the horrors of the first half of the 20th century to try to find a better way.

This new world order that was created in the aftermath of World War II, complete with some of these large scale global institutions. If we look at something like NATO, you mentioned a major, the largest national security alliance. These were created in the aftermath of the war. And whether or not they were done with, you could say, altruistic intentions or not is debatable. But nonetheless, there was a direct line. I don't think nations are altruistic. I think they're self-interested. I'm a realist in these things. Yes.

Not everybody is, but I am. Nonetheless, though, regardless of their intentions, there was broadly this direct line between the Truman Doctrine after World War II, I would say maybe with some ebbs and flows, but up until Biden's foreign policy during the last U.S. administration. You have written this really thought-provoking analysis piece, I would say, on the BBC website, where you talk about whether Donald Trump now is creating a new world order. And so I want to dig into that in a little bit more depth.

You have been reporting for the BBC for, what is it, four decades? Is that right, Jeremy? Something like that. More than four decades, yeah. I'm losing count. You've seen nonetheless where this doctrine has worked and where perhaps it hasn't worked. So let's begin with that. Is there a story where the rules-based order that was created after World War II worked as it was intended to function?

And the stated justification for this intervention was that it was not acceptable that Iraq try to annex territory of a neighboring country. Under the UN charter, the only justifications for legal military action are self-defense, one.

Jeremy, can I pause a bit? Because here we are having this conversation about the breakdown of the way the rules were intended to work for decades. And yet, we're talking about two decades ago that the US invaded Iraq. Was it already breaking down at that point? I don't think the system has ever functioned perfectly. There's almost never been a point when it didn't function at times really quite badly.

As a counterpoint to the examples that you gave of places that would seem to prove that the international rules-based order hasn't worked. So the second Gulf War in Gaza, there are people who might say that those two wars, those two conflicts are examples of why it's right to try and pursue a rules-based international order.

For example, if George W. Bush had listened to the United Nations when it refused to give a resolution approving the war, then maybe the war wouldn't have happened and maybe hundreds of thousands of lives might have been saved. There are other people who might say that the quote-unquote rules-based international order tried to intervene in Gaza. For example, the International Criminal Court has indicted individuals, including Benjamin Netanyahu and the leadership of Hamas,

Well, why don't we talk for a moment, Jeremy, then about what is the alternative and what we're witnessing right now from President Trump. He has outlined this self-described Dunrow doctrine. He wants to focus more, he says, on the Western hemisphere. And it seems that he believes in almost going back in time to this era of empires kind of carving up the world into these different spheres of influence.

But it strikes me that maybe that's not possible in the year 2026 to do ever so neatly. I mean, all this week we've been looking at this story, and yet there are large swaths of the globe that we haven't talked about. I mean, where does Iran, where does India, where does Europe fit into this suggested new paradigm?

Thank you so much for sharing your insights. We really appreciate it. Not at all. Thank you, Jeremy.

That was the BBC's international editor, Jeremy Bowen. And that's it for The Global Story today. By the way, if you want to catch up on the latest news from around the world, then we recommend checking out the BBC's Global News podcast. You can find it wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please send us your thoughts and ideas by emailing us. Our address is theglobalstoryatbbc.com. And please rate us wherever you're listening. It helps others find us.

And we want you to know that even if we can't respond to all the emails, we definitely read them. They don't go into a black hole. So let's share a few from this week. Shirley in Toronto got in touch to say she was very interested in the idea that the world has seen the U.S. take the Venezuelan president and asks what could this mean in the future for Taiwan if China ever decides to invade.