Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
So 9-11 created a situation when the government had to respond.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
You can have fear, but you overcome this fear.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I think we had something like 200 million users.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And it increasingly became popular in places like Iran and Russia and other countries where sometimes people have something to hide from the government.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
They decided to ban Telegram.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
People would still keep using it though, using VPNs.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
It didn't help.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
The government
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Because people can't download your app anymore.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I published it in my channel.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Your update is approved.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And we managed to
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
But that was something that is hard to forget.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
He left something for me there around the door.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I felt pain all over my body.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I tried to get up and go to the bathroom.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Everything accompanied by very acute pain.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Heart, stomach, all blood vessels.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Because the pain covered everything.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And I couldn't stand up.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I was super weak.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I looked at my
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
arms with my body.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
That was tough.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Did that make you...
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Afraid of the road you're walking?
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And all of a sudden you realize there's a lot of people attacking you.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
How did that change your view?
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Did that make you more scared of the world?
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
It wasn't the first time I thought I was going to die.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And I thought about many things at that moment.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
That was the moment I packed my backpack and just started to wait.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
They moved to hotel.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I started to design Telegram and assembling the team.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
It's the norm now to restrict voices that
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And then
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I instantly realized Telegram is going to be used to spread propaganda by both sides.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And then, interestingly, people from both countries revolted against this.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
What do you respect about him?
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
First of all,
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And if starting...
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
If these activities help Elon to innovate and start new projects, he should be doing more of it.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
There's nothing wrong in
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
in a certain sense, entrepreneurs sacrifice their peace of mind in order to contribute to the world around them.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
My philosophy here is pretty simple.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I think this is the way money should work.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Nobody can confiscate your Bitcoin from you.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Nobody can censor you for political reasons.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
This is the ultimate means of exchange.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Reframe the question.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
This removes the incentive to
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
work on developing their own skills, removes the incentive to study, to work.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
So I thought if they're gonna have this money, it should be something that they would only get when they're already adult.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
These mice...
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
suffered societal collapse that was irreversible.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Maybe some of the lessons he told you in the conversation you've had with him on his birthday.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I'm incredibly lucky to have my father.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
The ability to know the right from wrong.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
This is the lesson that he gave me.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
One of my goals in life is never to disappoint him.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Prolonged effort, hard work.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
But one of the reasons for that is I start doing things.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I identify the problem.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I can see a solution.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And I start executing the strategy.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Yeah.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
So it's not just staying healthy or trying to look good.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
It's also being productive.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And that can disrupt the team and the mood inside it even further.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
They can't assemble.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
It's over.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
We tend to go to extremes.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I think you still consider yourself a libertarian.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
they read me a list of something like 15 serious crimes that I'm accused of.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Which was mind-boggling.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
At first I thought there must be some mistake.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
No country, not even an authoritarian one, did that to any tech leader.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
at least at this scale.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
A small room, no windows.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Just a narrow bed made of concrete.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Most of it is public anyway.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And I was struck by...
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
It's just the wrong tool.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
So we objected and appealed the investigation itself.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
You have other entrepreneurs affected by the French test system telling me horror stories about their experiences, where businesses got paralyzed,
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I can just say this.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I am patient.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I will not let this limitation on my freedom dictate my actions.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
when you don't even know what's going on in the world in relation to you personally.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Is there anything they can do to get access to the private user messages?
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Nothing.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
My response would be very clear.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
The more pressure I get, the more
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I don't care.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
to restrict what I see as restriction of freedom of speech in Romania.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And use it to reach their political or geopolitical goals.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I consider it an attempt to humiliate myself personally and
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
But interestingly enough,
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
the French intelligence services that were asking us to do this in Moldova, let me know through their contact that after Telegram banned the few channels that were in violation of our rules in Moldova,
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And here, after this case in Moldova, I got much more suspicious.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
During COVID, we were protecting activists that were organizing the Black Lives Matter events.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
It's a fundamental right to assemble.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
It's interesting that
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
What can be fixed?
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
What should be fixed?
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I think the European society must decide where they want the ever-increasing
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Things won't change.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
His business died.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
It squeezes them out.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
Quick pause.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
I need a bathroom break.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
All right, we had some tea.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
He doesn't need to do it.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
He doesn't feel this urge to show off, brag about stuff.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
So it's easy to lose track and get disoriented.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
And at a certain point, if you're an A player,
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
when I see that evaporation animation.
Lex Fridman Podcast
#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
It's just nice.