#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature
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The following is a conversation with Pavel Durov, founder and CEO of Telegram, a messaging platform actively used by over 1 billion people. Pavel has spent his life fighting for freedom of speech, building tools that protect human communication from surveillance and censorship. For this, he has faced pressure from some of the most powerful governments and organizations on earth. In the face of this immense pressure, he has always held his ground, continuously fighting to protect user privacy and the freedom of all of us humans to communicate with each other. I got the chance to spend a few weeks with him and can definitively say that he is one of the most principled and fearless humans I've ever met.
Plus, when I posted that I'm hanging out with Pavel, a lot of people, fans of his, wrote to me asking if he does, in fact, privately live the disciplined, ascetic life he's known for. No alcohol, stoic mindset, strict diet and exercise, including a crazy amount of daily pull-ups and push-ups, no phone except to occasionally test telegram features, and so on. Yes, he is 100% that guy, which made the experience of hanging out with him really inspiring to me. I'm grateful for it, and I'm grateful to now be able to call him a friend. This podcast conversation is in parts philosophical about freedom, life, human nature, and the nature of government bureaucracies. And it is also in parts super technical, because to me, it is fascinating that Telegram has a relatively small engineering team and yet is able to basically out-innovate all of its competitors with an insane rate of introducing new, unique features.
Just like the meme of the Simpsons did it first, when you consider all the features we know and love in our communication apps, in almost every case, Telegram did it first. So we discuss it all, from the Kafkaesque situation he's in the midst of in France, to the rollercoaster of his life and career, to his philosophy on technology, freedom, and the human condition. And, by the way, while this entire conversation is in English, we make captions and voiceover audio tracks available in multiple languages, including Russian, Ukrainian, French, and Hindi. If this is of interest to you, you will need to head over to the Lex Friedman channel on YouTube, where you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking audio track, and then selecting the language you prefer.
Here, we only provide the original English version. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description or at lexfriedman.com slash sponsors. It is in fact the best way to support this podcast. We got Miro for team collaboration, Masterclass for learning, Uplift Desk for my favorite office desks, Finn for customer service AI agents, Element for electrolytes, and Shopify for selling stuff. online. Choose wisely, my friends. And now, on to the full ad reads. I do try to make them interesting, but if you skip, please still check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff, maybe you will too. To get in touch with me, for whatever reason, go to lexfriedman.com slash contact. Alright, let's go.
This episode is brought to you by a new sponsor. Miro. It's an online collaborative whiteboard platform, you know, like for brainstorming ideas together with your team, except on the interwebs. They have this space called the Innovation Workspace that blends AI and humans, human creativity, to develop ideas. So this is for multiple people, so it enables teams to brainstorm, prototype, and iterate fast on the ideas. I think a really big part of a successful team is being able to brainstorm. Each individual person in a self-motivated way is coming up with ideas. But then those ideas are put into the same kind of system where they can be integrated. And the tension between those ideas can develop even better ideas.
And so you go and go and go and constantly improve. So I think Miro is a really nice platform for that brainstorming process. Help your teams develop great ideas into results with Miro.
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