W. Kamau Bell
Appearances
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Do they keep stats? I don't know why we would keep stats because they're reproducing quite quickly. But it's like my kid goes to a school where it's like 50% kids of color, but most of those kids are mixed. Got it. It's funny, it's like, oh, it's a lot of people of color. And you're like, oh, but there's not one, there's not that many regular black people. They're just, yeah.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, and also I think it comes down to my parents are also just very different types of people. From each other or from you? From each other.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
The way I describe it is my mom is sort of an outside agitator. She's like, oh, you won't let me do this? I'm going to go outside and throw stones.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
My dad is more like, yeah, my dad is MLK. He's like, let's go work with him. Let's figure it out. And so he's like... like an achiever, like if you look at his resume, he's achieved a lot. A lot of it happened actually after I was sort of more grown up, so people think I grew up with him this way, but he was like, When I was born, he was like a semi-professional photographer and like poet.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
So it actually sort of starts to go like, oh, she needs to be around regular black people.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And now he's like, he was like an insurance guy and did a lot of, was very successful in the insurance industry. Whereas my mom was self-publishing black quotation books in our house and selling them to like black bookstores around the country.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
It's a book called Famous Black Quotations in the mid 80s. In the mid 80s, people don't, there weren't books that collected black quotations specifically. Quotation books were just white people, mostly white guys probably.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Who were like the... I mean, you know, there's probably like a Mount Rushmore. Of course, there's a lot of King. There's a lot of King. There's a lot of Frederick Douglass. Okay, of course. He was good. He was good. Who could forget? Of course. Hold for applause. Yeah, I don't think who else, because I don't want to leave anybody out. I'm trying to think.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
There's definitely going to be a lot of Maya. Especially in the mid-'80s. That's when Maya was really blossoming publicly. I'm trying to think who else is in there. That's probably the... Oh, Malcolm X. Yeah. I'm going to say Malcolm X. Yeah, those are the ones.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
My dad was in Alabama, born and raised in Alabama. My mom was in, we were in Boston, Indianapolis, Chicago, so we moved around a little bit, yeah. Are you aware of what's being built within you? Yeah, because I would go, like when my mom lived in Boston, like even little things, like I would go to Alabama in the summer and everybody in Alabama said, you sound like you're from the north.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Well, I think if you are a mixed kid and you only grew up around... First of all, let's be clear. I'm happy that my daughter has other mixed kids around her. One of her best friends is mixed, but they're not even mixed in the same way. So it's like, I think there's a mixed experience that I'm happy that she's able to discuss with other kids who are mixed. But then there's also just like...
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Then I would go back to the north and everybody would go, you sound like you're from the south. And so I was aware that like, so I don't belong in either of these places. Like nobody thinks I fit in any of these places. And I was aware that when I go to Alabama, people are just living way differently than they're living in Boston. And the cities look different and the accents are different.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And as a kid, I didn't like Alabama. And now as an adult, I'm like, thank God I did that. So I have some perspective. But yeah, so it was like, I was always aware, like, you know, I'm like living in my grandmother's house and her dog's name is Freeway. And he runs around the neighborhood and people come by every few minutes to check on my grandmother. It's like a very classic.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
She's on her Lazy Boy watching her stories. You know, so it's like a very slowed down version of life, summers in Alabama versus like Boston, where it's like...
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
I mean, I was an only child who loved being an only child, so rarely lonely, but I certainly learned, I learned how to keep my own company. Yeah. I learned how to like. I don't understand when children are like, I wish I had a brother. I didn't have any of that. I learned how to entertain myself. I think that's where the beginnings of being a stand-up comic, because I had access to my own
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Only as much as it made it easier to move around when you fit in, you know? Yeah. So, like, so I think, and I'm in high school, I'm in Chicago. It's also, like, I'm in high school when, like, hip-hop is fully going mainstream. Like, I'm in high school in the late 80s. So hip-hop is this thing that is now like it. And I'm like, I like it, but it's not like my, you know. It's a type of music.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
I mean, I could do every lyric to like Rapper's Delight. I was there for all those things. But like when I went to rap shows, I went to see, I remember I saw Arrested Development.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, exactly, yeah. So I'm aware that I'm, and then the bands I'm listening to, I'm listening to Black Rock, Living Color, Fishbone. So I'm aware that from that, and I go to the Living Color concert, and there's more black people on stage than in the crowd. And then I go to like, you know. Which they loved, I'm sure. This is what we did it for. This is why we started a band.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And so I'm aware that the things that I like like associate with,
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
whiteness even when they're not white yeah like fishbone is like from compton you know right so like it's not so but and the things that black people like and there's and this was before the internet so like there's no way to even find my own people now i think well that's what's funny is because it it ended up there are you weren't alone no but you were isolated yeah and i didn't there was no way to sort of like go on a thing and go hey who else what other black yeah there was no there were no chat boards or no uh
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Black people, you know, just like who aren't mixed and aren't thinking about being mixed and aren't, maybe some of them aren't that excited about mixed people.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
At the time I was there, I mean, I don't want to describe Hyde Park Town, but it's very much like it's on the south side of Chicago, but it's the University of Chicago's campus. So it is not the south side of Chicago the way that people say. It's where the Obamas live. It's where the Obamas live very comfortably. Yeah, like the library is going to be, et cetera, et cetera.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And the University of Chicago, like all big campuses, has taken over more and more of the neighborhood. So it's basically a police state. So you can't, yeah.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
so and michelle worked with the university or she worked with the hospital i don't know i don't know it was like community outreach but yeah there was definitely like and there's you know there are rappers from there i'm not trying to say it's like yeah but like vic mints is from high park so it's not like you know which so but like it's just i was sort of like aware that like even in this even on the south side of chicago i'm not in like the black so you but then as a black teenager who's on the bus going places oh so if you say you're from a high park
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
real black people be like oh yeah kind of like roll their eyes i can't say that for now for sure but when i was there definitely okay definitely like it's probably worse now yeah it probably is but i just don't want you know you don't get caught up like talking about a place you know sure so this is another black thing don't talk about a place unless you know it yeah don't don't be like yeah so uh
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
So, yeah, so I was aware that, like, even, like, I'm, but then sometimes you're just in a group of people or you find some people and conversations emerge. I remember one of my favorite stories of that, I was at an airport, listened to my yellow sports Sony Walkman. I travel a lot because I go to see my dad. And a black dude comes and sits next to me.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And he has that look like, I'm not in airports a lot, so I'm happy to see a black dude. And so he's like, hey, man. And I fly all the time. I'm like, hey, he's like, what are you listening to? And I remember being like, Pearl Jam.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And he was like, and I could see the look on his face like, I don't know if he even knew what it was, but it was not what he needed to be, and I don't think we could continue to talk. I have lots of moments like that.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Like a weed. Yeah. But the thing is, but at some point you hit a point of, like, but what does this look like as I get older? Like, I used to have a lot of fear about, like, am I just going to be alone the rest of my life? Not lonely, but alone. Like, you know those people who are like, that guy never dates anybody. Yeah. He goes, he buys, every day he goes to the grocery store, he buys one meal.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Well, the immersion program is that, so is that my dad lives in Mobile, Alabama. Say no more. Every time we go to Mobile, Alabama, I give them a speech of like, all right, we're about to go to Mobile, Alabama. We're traveling back in time. And I'm like, there are going to be 80-year-old black women who you've never met before who are going to say they've known you since you were a baby.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
He goes home, he makes that meal. Yes. He watches the evening news. Uh-huh. You know, and he's nice. Single serving everything. Single serving everything. He's nice, very nice guy. Yeah. Just never seen with anybody. So I had friends, my best friends.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, and nothing I did made me feel like I liked what I liked. Like, I was a big fan of stand-up comedy. This stand-up comedy was not cool at the time. It wasn't like now. We're like, I'm a comedy nerd.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
No, people didn't know. So you couldn't be like, what are you into? Stand-up comedy. It was not a thing. So nothing I would say to somebody... let's say I'm in high school, like a lady, is gonna get me any cool points. Comic books were not cool, they're cool now. I know everything there is to know about Bruce Lee, that's not getting me anything. I take Kung Fu lessons after school.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Not the answer we were looking for. Weirdly, I'm learning how to fight. So I just was like, I don't know where the other, so specifically talking about women, I don't know where the other half of this person is who would be like, yay. So maybe I'm just going to be alone forever.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
No, but I think that by the time I met her, I was like, first of all, I'm a little bit older than her, so I'm seven years older than her. Show business, of course you are. Yeah, of course, yeah. But luckily, like a good seven, yeah, she was 23 when I met her. It could have been worse. But so I was already on the other side of like, this is who I am. Yeah.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
So I'm not like, and also, as far as you could tell, this guy's a working comedian. So I want to be in the arts, and he's pursuing his career. And he's sort of like, as an example. So I had points there that I did not have before. But like, by that point, I'd abandoned thoughts of being cool. Like, I'd abandoned any sort of thoughts of like, But then I've also been with women.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
It's not like I was like, this is the first person I've built. But I sort of like, I am who I am at this point. Or I'm happy to figure it out and not be in the place that people think I'm supposed to be.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
No, I think – I mean it's different because three kids and one kid – the only child thing is a big part of it because you get to have – You have the time to explore in a way that like when you're in a family of three, you just don't have that much individual time. So like my middle kid, Juno, like I feel like we're opposites of each other because she was like she's a middle kid.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
So she's always feeling squeezed. And as an only child, I always felt free. And so I can connect with her because I'm like, I can I can tell that position sucks. Like I can tell that like you sort of always have to be shuttled with the other kid because nobody knows what to do with you. So you're always sort of like in the backseat going to soccer practice.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
and you're just going to have to be like, uh-huh. And then that happens? Yeah, you just have to accept it. They're going to be like, oh, I saw you when you, you've never met this person before. And they're going to, and every woman is going to want to hug and kiss you. And I know we talk about bodily autonomy and da-da-da.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
But I definitely know like the, I know the value of being alone. And Melissa, my wife, is one of four. And I don't think she recognizes that in the same way I do. The value of like everybody, I'm just going to go upstairs and close the door, you know. And so we are raising our kids to sort of like pursue their own thing.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
So I think they are being raised like weeds, but there's just more people around. So it's not as, you know.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
getting easier? If I was a single person with no, who was not married with no kids, it would probably be getting easier. It would probably be, I feel less. Oh, because your wife is white and your kids are mixed. Well, just because I have a lot of responsibility and my mom's 87 and I got to figure out how to like, every decision I make impacts those people.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
But I mean, just like, you know, like when I did the Cosby thing, I had to sort of go to my wife and be like, it's about to get ugly.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, you may want to make your internet profile private. I can't do that. My mom heard from people who were like, I can't believe you're a son, da, da, da, da, da, da.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
So the decisions I made, if I had sort of denied my natural curiosity about this Cosby thing and just sort of, I don't know, took the gigs that I, took sort of more regular gigs, it would be better probably for my family's, I don't know, They wouldn't be taking on the slings and arrows that they take on because I'm like, I'm so curious. I got to figure this out.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, so none of it affects... The work of the documentary is the work of the documentary. And a lot of that, despite how the documentary is, is actually fun to do because you're trying to solve creative problems. And I'm really proud of things in there. It's a very well-made movie. I texted you or whatever. It's really good. Yeah, and there's a section where we talk about... We do an...
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, yeah, over black. There's going to be a lot of black women who are going to hug and kiss you, who are going to tell you they're your aunt. They may or may not be your aunt, but you need to sort of like be around this.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
two and a half, like two episodes sort of giving you the history of Bill Cosby's current show business and talking about the crimes he committed, because a lot of people think it all happened later, but it was throughout his career. And then you get to episode three, where I've earned enough of your trust as a filmmaker who takes this seriously to do the lip sync scene from the Cosby show.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And go, this was awesome. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I'm really proud of the fact that I was able to take people back to that moment like, yeah, that was awesome.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And has to be reckoned with for the rest of American history. And has to be sort of like... And the whole doc is like, but we gotta reckon with all of it. I think if we don't reckon with all of it, we're... I think it's bullshit. I think it's bad for black people to not reckon with all of it.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the way I said in the doc is that it's not about black wealth. It's about black money not being, money being not such a factor in every black household's decision.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah. Like not like you're a doctor. They never there was never. No, no, no.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And the parents were able to make decisions based on what they wanted. Not can we afford it?
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Which to me is like a different level of freedom that most black people don't have in this country.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, they were just like, should we do this? It's not good times.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
It's like the side effect from the medicine didn't kick in for a long time.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, I think that like, I'll just say this. I've talked to people just around the making of this, who feel like I owe my entire career, and these are black people, to the job I got on The Cosby Show and to his specific mentorship of me on that job. And I'm still doing, I'm in show business at this level because I started there.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Now, some people would say, well, you would have gotten another chance somewhere else. But that's not true. Maybe, maybe not. Yeah, yeah. Especially as a black, like these are black women who worked around him who were like, I wouldn't have done this.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And even one of my favorite parts of the doc is Lily Bernard, who's one of the survivors, talks about how great the set was because it was filled with black people. Yeah. And so that, and that's somebody who's like a survivor of having a horrible thing happen to her from him. And she's still able to go, the set was amazing. Yeah.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
So I don't think, I don't think you can crush a legacy at the same time.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
all of this tv stuff is temporary all this pop culture stuff is temporary so that you know as much as we go like the like it's like i i you don't i mean whenever people talk about like making their special and standing the test of time i'm like i love comedy i haven't watched prior or carlin exactly yeah in 30 years well to me it's like when i you may be a similar age i grew up i remember where i grew up and they were still i love lucy reruns on absolutely now you you have to go find them you have to go buy them you know what i mean so like
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And that was as big in its way as the Cosby show. It sort of changed television. Yeah. And had a woman as the lead. And Desi Arnaz. And they're an interracial marriage. And so there's all this stuff. Yeah.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
yeah yeah uh but yeah so like all this pop culture stuff is in some level gonna at some point re like people like they don't show reruns of cosmos anymore first of all reruns are not even a thing that we really do a lot anymore anyway in the society but second of all eventually you stop showing reruns of everything you know yes gilligan's island was on everywhere when i was a kid yeah you couldn't even i couldn't explain it to my kids now you know what i mean so like
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
No, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I don't think I would say bodily autonomy is overrated to my six-year-old. That seems like an out of sight of what... But I know, but I do say they're going to want to hug you and kiss you. I want you to know that so that you can have that in you. And then there are going to be times where they're going to literally be like, come here, baby.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
I know. So I knew, I think one of the great things about being a comedian is that your imagination is often way more fertile than other people's, than regular people's.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, I always took a ghost dog approach. I'm going to imagine, I imagined the worst things I thought could happen to me. like, from this thing. And so, and all the, not the words, just all the different things I thought this could happen, this could happen. So by the time some of those things happened, I was like, oh, I knew that was it. Yeah.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
So, like, and also, they didn't firebomb my house. So, like, I had imagined that. But, like, I knew that, like, okay, somebody's going to come out with a thing that says we need to talk about Debbie Kamau Bell. That happened. That's a YouTube clip that YouTube suggested. You like Kamau Bell? And I was like, no. Good.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sir. And so like, or like, I knew that the people who had the most to say about it in the negative would be people who never watched it. So even today, I will be walking down the street, happens, maybe happened six months ago, and I'll run into a black person who's around my age who's like, man, I liked everything you did except that one thing.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And I'm like, Cosby, Cosby, that Cosby thing. Yeah. And inevitably, I'll let them like, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh. It's like, did you see it? Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. I mean, I think if you saw it, you might, well, . And I think what happens at that moment, one, people notice that I don't run away. I don't get scared.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Because a lot of times, it's been black dudes who sort of have a little bit of that regular black energy.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Not the private school energy. But I'm also, you know, I look like... You're pretty big, though. Yeah, I'm 6'4". People are often like, you're tall.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
So, exactly. That could kick in at any time. But I'm sort of very aware that, like... I'm not gonna like run away from, if you're not gonna, unless you're gonna be super rude, but if you just wanna talk, I'll talk to you. And so I've talked to many people. I was in Mr. Fab's store in Oakland one time and this black dude came in and was just like, and I sort of stood there and talked to him.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And by then he's like, all right, well, you know, like not that he was gonna go watch it, but he's like, this guy didn't run from me, you know? So I was aware that like, I was gonna be in situations with black people who were gonna have feelings about it. And I was gonna have to deal with those feelings.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And some of the, and the other thing is I knew some of those black people would be black comedians.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
It's just like, but people think that's what it was. That's the most convenient version of it is like, he's been, he's been hired by the white man to take the black man down. And so like, you know, and all I can do is like, the great thing about it, having kids, a lot of my, what other people think about me, I just don't have time for it or energy for it. Yeah.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
So it does affect me, but it doesn't affect me as much as it used to.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
The Andrew Tate era of masculinity. And so I think absolutely there are, I've seen people online argue it. First of all, the other argument is everybody was doing it. White people were doing it. They didn't get caught. So why should we, even if he did do all this, why are we focusing on him?
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Like a thing that doesn't happen, come here, give me up. And I want you to be prepared for that. I'm not going to tell you how to handle it, but I just want you to know that's going to happen. And these are people who – and this is the thing I tell them. These are people who love you even though they've never met you. They have an investment in your future.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Well, it's also the fact it was like, yeah, of course white guys get away with it. It's how this country works on every level. Like, why are you surprised? That's not proof of anything.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Let me simplify that for you. Don't rape. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like don't, don't, don't. You can't. Let's say if you want to be a scumbag, if you're black, it's just going to be harder. I'm sorry.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
I don't get invited to all of the black spaces all the time. Were you getting invited? No, I was already sort of like, I'm always, I already smell, like I think they can smell private school on me. And that's bad. And I'm not trying to put those spaces down, but I think black guy married to a white woman is already like a, and I accept it. It's a demerit. I accept it. I'm not, I get it. I get it.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
So the cover of Essence is probably not coming. You know what I mean? So like, but they have, I have been covered in those magazines. I'm not trying to say that, but I just know that there's like, a certain level, and also I didn't come up through like the black comedy club circuit, and so a lot of the people who would know me didn't know me if I'd come up through that circuit.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
I was like, okay. He's going skiing this weekend. No, and I don't have any, I want to be so clear about this. I don't have any beef with any of this stuff. No, of course not. And I'm the dude who chose to do it this way. So I can't be surprised about what happened. Like, how come I don't get called for, well, yeah, you're not even over there.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
They're going to tell people they saw you. If you ever pop up in a newspaper article because you – They're going to send it to 10 people. Exactly. Like these are your people, and so I want you to be prepared for your people. So just to build the context so that like if – because –
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
I was fully prepared for my career to be over. Like I was fully prepared for like. I can after Cosby. Yeah. I was like sort of preparing for like, maybe I won't get, you know, I had still had United shades at that point. So I was like, I still have that, but like you did four or five years of that seven, seven, Jesus.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
That's like, it's like bringing up this guy used to work at McDonald's. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, so, so, uh, yeah, so I, I was just prepared for like, I don't know, this could be so bad. that the whole thing could be over because nobody's going to want to work with me. Because first of all, I didn't know if people would like it. So if everybody hates it, then my career is over.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
And I just am one of those people who went down in a blaze of glory. So I was already like, well, I'm here in Oakland. I can get a job. I could probably teach theater. I could go back to school, get my degree, and then become a professor. I know enough. I was like, I know enough that I can keep my family fed and clothed. But I was prepared for that 100%.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
But the fact is, is like when it came out very quickly, it became the best reviewed thing I'd ever released, like the best, most critical acclaim. And so I felt like, okay, at least I have that.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Exactly. I won a Black Reel Award. And then what happened, I remember I was at Tribeca Film Festival and this started, this was the first time it happened, but it started happening more and more. This was like months after it had come out. And I was even like worried about going out in public for a little while. Like, I just was like, I'll tell you, Good story about that.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
So this black woman came up to me at the Tribeca Film Festival and was like, Kamau Bell, yeah. She sort of waved me over. She's like, you had my group chat on fire. She was sort of saying it like it was great, but people were really in their feelings about it. She's like, you blew up everybody's group chat. And I didn't know that. And I heard from other black people about that.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
There was just a lot of like... Yeah, it's, it's, yeah. That ultimately was better. And it came out before R. Kelly, right? The R. Kelly doc? It was after R. Kelly. Because it was sort of, like, the two docs that inspired it were Surviving R. Kelly and Made in America O.J. Simpson.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
In Oakland, if some black woman they don't know comes up and hugs them, it might be a little bit strange because this is not the same as the South. It's not totally different. There are certainly black women who will hug you in Oakland. I want to be clear about that. But the South, it's just very concentrated, which is why I'm glad I said that.
Blocks w/ Neal Brennan
W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, I mean, she had it worse. There was like death threats and bomb threats.
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W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, she had it worse. But I think Dream also is like, doesn't give, like, probably, maybe doesn't feel it the same way I felt it, because DreamHammond doesn't give a shit. DreamHammond can do what she does. She's the greatest. And she's been a real resource during this time when I was sort of having a rough time.
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And so, yeah, so I think that like my male privilege to some extent protected me because I'm not getting as many, I'm gonna rape you as if I was a woman filmmaker. You got some.
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Yeah, but I'm not getting, and so like, and the thing that came out of it that I felt like mission accomplished was that Lily Bernard, who I talked about earlier, said after the doc came out and was out for a while, she got less online hate than before the doc came out. Because she's like a very prominent Cosby survivor. And she said the online hate has gone down significantly.
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And she said it's consistent since the doc came out. So I was like, well, if I can take the slings and arrows, if nothing comes out of it but that, good job, or mission accomplished. But the story I want to tell you is, so this is how, this is what I sort of,
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Sort of the kind of thing I was sort of dealing with so I'm going to the I'm like, I think it's United chasing CNN thing They sing they send a car to my house to pick me up CNN people do that you can explain to them that that's how it works in show business So I go into the car. It's not it's like and you know, if you use a car service lot There's like your regular driver.
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Mm-hmm And this was not my regular driver and some other guy and I was I gotta get in the car and we're driving It's a black dude and we get in the highway. He goes man I gotta talk to you about that Cosby doc. Brother, what were you thinking? I was talking to my family, and they were like, why would this brother? I like, and he's like, you know what? I drive him sometimes.
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I'm gonna talk to this brother and see what, we're going, it's like a 45 minute trip to the airport.
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held captive while this guy hasn't seen it and told his family that I'm going to confront him next time he's in my car. And I have to like, sort of, and it was like, I have to sort of just sort of roll with this, you know what I mean? And sort of finagle. And so that's the kind of thing that I have found myself having to figure out situations like that.
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Well, often the thing that I've learned is that people in this situation, this happens to me a lot, have a speech they've prepared if I ever run into that guy. Yeah. I'm going to tell him, and they have it memorized. And if you just sit back and let them talk, they will eventually talk themselves out. They will get to the end of their speech and all you're gonna be like, yeah, I hear you.
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100%, yeah. No, I think that like it's – I think that – every American should spend some time in the South, because I think a lot of us sort of like, even comics, we go, we play the club, but you don't actually hang out.
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And you know, the other time, you know what? So eventually I had to, so that happened. Next few months later, a few months later, I'm getting in the car, same thing, same driver. And he goes- Man, I got to talk to you. I saw you on CNN talking about Dave Chappelle and trans people. Why you got to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Uh-huh. I was like, I finally called the car company.
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I was like, Hey man, I'm not trying to get anybody fired. I'm not trying to get anybody. I don't, I'm not, I'm not, but I just, I just need to not, not that guy. Yeah. Not, not his podcast. I've been a guest on his podcast twice. That's very funny.
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So for me, I've been going to Mobile since I was a kid, and I think it like totally, I think it explains a lot of my life, why I sort of am able to move around a lot and be in a lot of different places, because I was going from like Boston to Mobile, and those are two very different and very similar places with weird accents.
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And I sort of got to understand that like America is a lot of different things. And I think that like Especially with black people. Most black people in this country live in the South.
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I think that the biggest thing I've done is like, don't feel like you're supposed to be places, like don't feel like, sort of like go where you're invited. You know what I mean? So CNN goes, do you want to do a show here? That doesn't make any sense. I'm a comedian. That's not gonna work. But let me go have that meeting. Oh, Bourdain's here. Oh, Morgan Spurlock's here. I like them. Oh, Lisa Lee.
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Oh, they want me to da-da-da-da. Anybody alive? Go on. Lisa's still with us. Lisa's still with us, thank God. But yeah, so, but yeah, like, the idea of, like, I sort of, like, maybe I should have, like, moved to L.A.
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and started auditioning for stuff, but I'm like, and the CNN show at the beginning especially wasn't, like, it was paying good money, but it wasn't, like, network TV money or anything. Yeah. So, like, it was, like, I was still having, I was still working outside of it, but, like,
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So basically, if somebody's inviting you a place and you feel like you can do what you do there, don't question all the like, but is this the, but maybe I should. So there was a run where I was on the CNN crawl, Anderson Cooper, Don Lemon, and me. And it was like, nope. Nobody one of these things does not belong here, but like I figured out my way there.
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And so I think for me like Following my nose has been the best thing to do instead of like saying like like free I I never moved to LA I should have moved to LA I have friends, you know, all my friends like for one. I mean based on looking back It's like well, no, I also knew that LA was not gonna be I was just like that's not gonna work for me I just knew and so
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I sort of always knew that, like, I got to do it my way. And then if you're going to do it your way, then just expect it's going to take longer. Or it's going to be a different journey. Or it's not always going to make sense. And so I think even the bands I liked sort of taught me, like, all my favorite bands had careers that they achieved less than they should have. You know what I mean?
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But they created great art. And so I feel like, well, look, you don't like Aerosmith. You know what I mean?
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Well, there's different versions of it, but there's like in the North, they don't care how high you get as long as you don't get too close. In the South, they don't care how close you get as long as you don't get too high. So the idea being that in the North, you can be a black doctor, but don't move into my neighborhood.
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No, like if you're a big fan of like... Pearl Jam's a fine example where it's like they're still around and they're still vital and all that stuff. They're still packing stadiums. But like you don't know it unless you look for it. You have to be a fan. Yeah. But they're all paying their mortgages on their multiple houses every month. Yes. But like...
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Like, you know, but like the bands I like, it's like they're they just go through a lot more. And so I'm like, then that's probably your path. Yeah. You know, so I think but having three kids, it's also like, all right, so I can't just go back to stand up and fool around with it. If I'm going to stand up, I got to start booking some gigs because I need to sort of like this has to generate income.
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And I also think that, like, I recognize being smart for a comedian doesn't mean you're actually smart. And we live in a time where a lot of comedians think they're actually smart. I don't know what you're talking about.
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Yep. And I think I've sort of got the point of, like, always understand that you're smart. It's like being good-looking for a comedian. Yeah. Like, what's his name? Matt Rife. Matt Rife, yeah. He's good-looking for a comedian. Yeah. 60-year-old Brad Pitt walks in the room, nobody's looking at Matt Rife.
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You know, so I think that, like, the idea being that, like, we've got a whole generation of comedians who have been...
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The internet has connected people in a way that black weirdos can find each other. I remember the first time somebody called me a blurd, I was like a black nerd. I was like, oh, is that what I've been all this time? I wish I had that when I was 12. I wish I had that word. Back then it was not, oh, now it's cool? And so I think that like...
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Whereas in the South, they're like, I'd rather you live next to me than be a black doctor. You can move in. Yeah, you can move in. Just don't go to med school. And also, it's a legacy of enslavement. White people in the South are used to black people in a way that white people in the North are not used to black people. Still getting used to it. Still working it out 140 years later. I don't know.
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my kids are able to define themselves, you know, they're mixed, so it's a little bit different, but they're still black, and they're able to define themselves as however they want to, and I sort of enjoy watching that.
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So I think, yeah, it's easier now, but there's still, like, gonna be a hot, there's still gonna be a percentage of black people who are gonna tell you, we are the holders of what is black, and you have to deal with that. And that's the thing about, like, my kids going to South.
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I want you to understand that, like, there is a black consciousness, or people who think they're in charge, but they're not, and you need to just sort of understand that that's out there so you know how to deal with it.
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it's yeah it's elective yeah it's like yeah if you want to buy into that but also just so you know so you're not like oh yeah is that are you a hotep you know what i mean like you should know what the stakes are and who's and so you're you know we have to it's important that they travel around me as many different types of black people as possible to understand that there's like there's a lot of different types and we do you encourage them being around like or being exposed to black conservative people
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You know what I mean? My oldest is 13, so she's not quite ready for Trump. Right, but I'm saying, like, do you... I'll say this. Like, if you're around... If you're a black kid growing up in Oakland, which my kids are, and you go to Alabama, you're automatically around black people who are more conservative than black people in Oakland. Now, they're not necessarily voting for Trump.
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Some of them are, though. But so I think that's the other thing, too, is, like, just the way they are in the world and their belief. Also more church-focused. Like, my kids... past churches, like they don't know, they don't spend time in churches. So being around black people in the South, you're around more, just not small C conservative people.
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So you have to sort of understand that there are different types of people out there, and it's fine, great, great. They're not bad.
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So, my oldest is applying to high school right now. And it's sort of just... Pretty good religious high schools. That's what I'm saying. So, her mom, Melissa, went to, like, Catholic school K through 12. Like, actually through college, too. Me, too. Except for college one year. Yeah, she went to Santa Clara. So, she's... But she's not... She's Catholic in culture, not Catholic in... Yeah.
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Yeah, we don't go to mass. So when we started talking about high schools, she was like, there's a couple Catholic high schools in the East Bay. And I was like, ugh. But then we went and checked them out. And I went to Catholic high school for a couple years, so I understand. But we went and checked them out. So first of all, they're Bay Area Catholic. Right. So it's just not Louisiana Catholic.
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Yeah. There's a lot of, everybody, everybody's in. And also the schools aren't even mostly Catholic kids. But for me, it was like, you know what? A big part of cultural IQ is knowing about religions. And they will teach her about religions of the world, including Catholicism, of course. And so for me, it was like, you actually have a hole here that you don't know this because your parents are...
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Awful. And, but I think you should, it will behoove you to sit down in a classroom and actually learn about the religions of the world in a way that I just got from being out in the world. Yeah. So, so yeah, so I would say like, I don't want my kids to grow up without a concept of religion. We don't talk about like God in any sort of like real sort of like, oh, there's a God like in our family.
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This is a thing I learned because I was working on projects about schools. Overwhelmingly integration went better in the south than it went in places like Boston. Why? Because black and white people in the South are more used to being around each other. Right. So there certainly are stories, but just generally, it went way worse in Boston than it went in lots of places.
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They do, however, hear me all the time being like, oh, thank you, black Jesus. Like, they do hear me, like, as a person who, like, whew, that was close. Thank you, Black Jesus. So they understand that there is a sense of, like, there is a thing that I'm relying on that I'm calling Black Jesus. And so they understand those things.
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But I think that, like, I am happy that she's going to have sort of, like, a deep dive into these things because I think it's important to know. And maybe you develop a relationship with religion on your own or God or spirituality. But it is interesting to me to think that, like, we basically have raised godless kids.
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Yeah, no, for sure. That's why I sort of only flirted with atheism as a teen, but I never could commit to it because I was like, I kind of do need black Jesus. When I say thank you, black Jesus, I am saying thank you. You're talking about Michael Jordan, of course. Of course, of course. I am saying thank you to something that is higher than me.
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I do it as a joke, but I am actually expressing gratitude to... In that moment, like something is bigger than me is helping me through this moment. But my kids don't have, didn't, but I also got that through going to church with my mom, going to my grandmother's Baptist churches where black women passed out and they had to speak in tongues.
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So I got it in a more up close and personal way than my kids have gotten it.
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But I think the other thing is like, it's important to me that they have, like we talk about gratitude all the time. Like we will get, because of my career, like we got to go to Universal Studios for free, and I'm sort of clear with them like, you didn't earn this. Yeah. You don't deserve, I don't deserve this. Yeah. So we should be grateful for the fact that we get to do this, you know.
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Impossible. It's an ongoing discussion. You can't just have that discussion once. It's like you have to keep having it to instill the idea.
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No, but I think that with our careers, with my career, you get access to stuff that even your friends who are maybe even richer than us don't get access to. You know what I mean? So I just want to be aware that this is not promised to us. And this is the thing about being from the South. Say thank you to everybody, which is totally a Southern thing. Say yes, ma'am.
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I'm sort of instilling those Southern values because I think those are important.
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America, who the... Yeah. No, I mean... Just on the way here this morning, listening to the news, we have achieved... Like, Trump has achieved something... But it's funny.
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Again, this goes back to if I didn't have kids and didn't have a, maybe if I had a wife be different, but if I didn't have kids, I would be gone. I'd be okay. Well, here's where are you going? Um, I would, well, that's the thing. Where do you go? This is the thing.
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Sure, yeah. No, I'm not talking about violent. Certainly there's a legacy of lynchings in the South. But in the North, they weren't lynchings. They were just police brutality. So it just is a different name.
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First of all, if you apply to Canada, they do have a thing called, it's basically like their genius visa. So if you have like, uh, if you've done things in the arts, if you're a published author, you can get so, cause I'm too old by age to get in there, but by a claim I can get it. I think I can get it. So I've looked into it. Uh,
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I have thoughts of going to New Zealand and being the Yakov Smirnoff of New Zealand. Like the black American in New Zealand. In my country, I would just travel the country and do a TV show where I just like eat. That's why it's in New Zealand. Because even right-wing New Zealand, which they're right-wing right now, still has like a social safety net, health care, progressive policies.
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But there's not a lot of black people. But I think if I went there, I would like – become part of the, like the, the tribe, like the Maori tribes and things. I would sort of like, okay. Cause you can't, as a black guy, there's not really a lot of places. I mean, of course there's Ghana. Yeah.
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Yeah. I would go, I mean, I would go check out Ghana. I just, you know, again, I got mixed kids.
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Yeah, but like, but the thing that as a black person's country, you're like, but we're also sort of the, weirdly though, we're not the smaller, we're like 12% of the population, but we're one of the engines of the country.
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So like, if you take black people out of this country, shit starts to go left. Culturally? Yeah, culturally, yeah. And just like, you know, all the, most of the money in this country comes from like the blue states and the blue cities, which are more black than the red states, like a lot of the red states. So, but yeah, so I think that like,
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we definitely have earned our value here in this country as far as like we should be, but we're not being given our value. We're not being treated as if we've earned our value in this country. So for me, I think a part of it is like, I remember talking to this black woman before the election, like something about we have to fight for our country.
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And I had that moment that every black person has eventually, is this really our country? And I really think that like, we have to understand that countries are temporary. Like in the history of the world, When I was a kid, we had a map of Africa in my house that my mom would regularly have to be like, that country's named this now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, and so I think that we have to, in my mind, if I didn't have kids who really wanted to stay in school, I would start going to other places and looking around to see where do I fit? Because I got to fit somewhere else. Because I think that this country is...
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I always said even in, there's different types of racism in America, and I prefer the West Coast racism to the Southern racism. So I'm not like, and so I don't think if I go to- By the way, there's different types of racism in Africa. Yeah, for sure. So I'm not saying I'm trying to escape racism. I'm trying to escape specifically America and America's policies and America's race.
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Like, so I don't think as a black person, our images have been like sort of sold and sort of all over the world. So wherever I step into it, they're gonna have some sense of what a black person is. Now it's gonna be, especially if I step into Ghana, it's as an American black person. And so I'm gonna have to deal with that wherever I go.
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And part of the thing about New Zealand, there's not a lot of black people over there. And so a little bit, it feels like maybe I just go there for a break from just like, maybe there I can sort of, and then gear up and go to Ghana. I don't know.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like... I'm in America. You gotta really... Fuck white people.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my name. I mean, I also thought about moving to Hawaii and then helping them become a sovereign nation again. Like, I've got a lot of ideas. Yeah. So, but I do think that America, like, I don't know that America deserves... most of us anymore. And I don't think, I think we have to stop thinking about this country as being a forever thing.
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And I think if we thought more like that, not that everybody has the privilege to leave, but I think if we thought, instead of being like, we have to fight for this thing, like, what are we fighting for? And so, but because I have kids and an 87-year-old mom,
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And I think that even if I was to leave this country, which again, I don't have any plans for this. This is just like, if I was single, I would be more invested in it. But I understand that the work of being a black American doesn't leave just because I leave.
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I still sort of am connected to this country and invested in this country and checking in on this country and probably in some way making money off this country. But I just think that the last election really proved that, oh, this country really may not, we may have turned a corner.
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But it's not significant enough that people act like it means something. It didn't swing anything. It didn't swing anything, yeah.
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Yeah, because most people, no matter their race, don't pay that close attention to politics. Right. So I think we always sort of – people like me and you are like, oh, did you see what happened?
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Exactly. And it just sort of comes through the ether. And then somebody they know online says, that's not real. They go, he said it's not real. Or Joe Rogan tells them something. So the idea being that I don't think that most people are paying that close attention. So I can't really – get mad at them for voting for Trump.
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Now, if you're out there hustling for Trump as a black person, that's a different thing. I feel like now you're a grifter. Yes. But I think most people just sort of, like, do you know the day of the election, like, there was a spike in Google of, like, Why isn't Joe Biden on the ballot? Yeah. Yeah.
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And a big spike. Yeah. So that to me is like most, we think most people are paying.
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It's like us. At 6.13 this morning, the president said, you know, did you see his tweets? And most people aren't doing that. And so I have more empathy for those people than other people do. My beef is with people who are on my side who are being bad actors.
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Like I'd rather, if I'm going to put some beef into an area, it's going to be into the like, you know, Hakeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumers of the world where it's like nothing.
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Because money rules politics, it just means that those at the top are generally not going to be what we want them to be. Yeah. So therefore, we have to be, as a society, we have to be in a position to bully them into the position we want them to be in because they're not going to do it on their own. On their own good.
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I do think that like at this particular moment in American history, if you are a person in power and a Democrat and you're not like actively like out there every day calling balls and strikes and actively out there every day, like sort of figuring out how to speak, how to sort of speak directly to people's country and how to like marshal the forces.
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If you're a person who goes, I don't know what leverage we have. I can't trust you.
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But, see, this is Obama. This is where... Think about Obama. Obama came out of nowhere, basically.
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Like, he was not a guy who was being groomed. He groomed himself. Groom is a weird word to use now. But he sort of believed. Him and Michelle believed it before anybody else saw it. Yeah. Michelle didn't, but he did. Yeah. You know more than me. You're much closer to the Obamas than I am. I've never met them.
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So I think that's the model is go find these leaders who are now state senators, who are now like Summer Lee, who's from Pennsylvania, is a great example. She won a moderate district. I don't know if she's a socialist, but she's a democratic socialist. She's a progressive black woman, had to defeat AIPAC money to win her Congress seat.
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Latifah Simon, where I'm from, just took over Barbara Lee's seat. Our dynamic leaders who are now in the Congress, go find, Go find those dynamic leaders and start to prepare the way for them.
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And I think that right now, I would say the Democrat Party should be like the NBA in Africa in the 80s. Just go look for tall guys. Yeah. Just go look for like, just go. And I think that if they go, if they were to focus on that, I would be, Hakeem Jeffries can do whatever he wants to do, Chuck Schumer, but you really need to go invest in new talent. Yeah.
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And I think right now they're sort of like, when they say things like we don't have leverage, it's like you're trying to hold on to your position.
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Yeah. So I think that like until we can like get money out of politics, which is a big thing, the Democratic Party is only to be taken seriously if they understand like we need new blood.
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they didn't just sort of like explode out of nowhere. They were like, that's the guy. He's young. He's charismatic. You know, Malcolm X was in prison and came out of prison and started giving speeches like, wait a minute, that guy talks really good. Like, you have to go find these people. And then when you find them, you have to turn the power over to them instead of just using it.
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So I think at least AOC is actually demanding her turn. And I feel like I take her more seriously that way. And like I said, I think that like, I don't know that America's ready for a woman of color president. Like I'm not saying that we like should, a little bit I feel like, okay, find the best looking square jawed white guy available. And that's why I sort of have given up on America.
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But I think you're not gonna find that person unless you let that person, you're not gonna, you have to go find that person.
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That wasn't my catchphrase. White atheism, is it? You must be a white atheist. But no, I remember that because For some reason, yeah, I remember when you got to me, I was just like, in my mind, why would I say no? What would I be holding on to if I said no to this thing that is already out in the world? The only thing I was worried about is if somebody sees it and thinks you stole it.
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I think that if we think this country is eventually going to settle back to some sense of like, all right, that was a crazy period. Now we're back to regular. I think that's naive. I think without actually fighting, scrapping, clawing,
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figuring out, like, being invested in the solution, it's naive to think that America's gonna, like, settle in to, like... You know, Trump already has gone faster than even some Republicans expected. Yeah. Have you seen all these meetings where Republicans are showing up in their district? Yeah, they're mad. Talk about, Doge is doing... Stop yelling! You know what I mean?
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Like, so, he's already, like, upsetting the apple cart so much that it's, like, that Republicans can't keep up with it. And I think that there's clearly gonna be more of that. And I think that we are naive to think that America sort of naturally pulls towards justice... I think America has been pushed towards justice.
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And I think that it's not going to get to justice unless it is actually like bullied into justice, which is a funny way to put it. But I think that we can't sort of go.
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And I think that whenever I see people on TV, especially in media who are like, you know, who are still in this place of like, for example, Elon Musk with this awkward hand gesture, I'm like, what you're telling me is that you're going to be fine.
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That you've got, that you've, that you own a place in the Hamptons or you've got enough and you're invested in your 401k or you've got enough in the stock market that you're not actually worried. You don't have to be worried.
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W. Kamau Bell
And so I think whenever I see people, celebrities talk about like, you know, things we go through stuff sometimes, like what you're saying is you're going to be fine. And I, and I, one of the great things about living in Oakland and in Oakland is that most people aren't fine. Yeah. You know, you know, most people, and I, and I see it every day.
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And so it makes me sort of be like, I can't relax into my own, like, I'll figure it out. Like, I'll figure it out, but it doesn't mean I'm going to be fine.
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And I got to be invested in everybody's fineness, just not my fineness.
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W. Kamau Bell
Or it's a society. But I think the thing, people always come to me now because I'm this guy, like, Kamau, what can I do? What should I do? What should I do? You got to do something.
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W. Kamau Bell
And I don't mean, I think we get caught up in like, I guess I'll start a nonprofit where I collect the sweaters from, you know, just like, and not that I'm pushing it, but like Donors Shoes is an organization I'm involved with that helps provide classroom supplies and equipment for public schools. You can go to DonorsChoose right now.
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W. Kamau Bell
Like the word choose. Choose. Donors choose. So the donor gets to choose. So you can look up classrooms in your area code, wherever you live, in your zip code. Not area code, zip code. And you'll find public schools in your area where a teacher's like, I need $300 to buy hygiene supplies. And you just go. Boop.
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W. Kamau Bell
On your credit card. And that happens. That's something. It's not like now you can't walk around and brag the rest of the day. But I think the idea being like, yeah. Watch me. Watch me. But the idea being that we all have to find something because nothing ain't going to get it. Yeah. So that's all I'm saying is all of us who want America to be
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the thing that we thought it was when we were kids, have to be actually invested in something.
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I'm not, I just think like right now you have all these Trumpers who are like, I voted for Trump and I have the hat and I just got laid off from my job because da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And people are like, ha-ha-ha. Yeah, and we don't think ha-ha-ha is not a good approach. No, no, no, ha-ha-ha. Not a good approach. But now I'm like, well, what are you going to do now?
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W. Kamau Bell
Because if in four years you vote for him again, because he's going to run again for some time, or you vote for J.D. Vance, I need to know, I'm not going to laugh at you, but I do need to know, have you learned? Are you going to change?
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W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, I know. Yeah, but other than that, I was like, you know. I'm a big understander in parallel thinking. Yeah, that's the thing.
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W. Kamau Bell
I just think that may be the cycle, but that cycle may happen over, like, there's going to be some stat of, like, the number of people who died because their Social Security check didn't come in. Like, they missed one month of Social Security, so they couldn't buy their medicine or they couldn't buy their food, and they died. And there's going to be some stat that proves this is what the cost was.
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W. Kamau Bell
And I want to be clear, I'm not here to advocate for President AOC or Bernie or any of these people. It's funny to me to see all these comedians who showed up at the inauguration being like, man, I would never show up at one of these people's things. Even people I agreed with, I'm not trying to be at the VIP room. And so for me, I'm not advocating for anybody.
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W. Kamau Bell
I just appreciate people who are actually trying something versus people who are like, what can we do?
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I don't think you compare it to who's doing it right. I think about a video game. Like in an NBA video game, the sliders on each player. This player's going to three-pointers. This player's going to rebounds. I think you have to look around and go, I'm going to look at all the sliders and go, man, Norway has a great quality of life. It's got social safety net. It's got prison reform.
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W. Kamau Bell
It's got that. But it's got almost zero black people. So I can't do it. So I can't do it. I can't do it.
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W. Kamau Bell
Now if you're like, I have this joke about your daughter. Wait a minute. But no, I just think that like, and also I think it's also about the fact that, I remember that emo Phillips thing. If you have a thousand jokes and somebody steals three, Well, you still got like 997 jokes. But if you have three jokes and somebody steals one, who the hell would you try to make it with three jokes? Yeah.
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W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, it's fucking freezing. So I think you're not going to get. Which is synonymous with zero black people. Exactly. Those things often go hand in hand. So I think you can't look at these countries like, I'm going to pick the best one. You're going to pick the one that works for you.
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And I think that we all sort of take, there's things that you take for granted in this country that if you go somewhere else, you might be like, oh man, I do kind of miss that. So I think that you have to, I think when we talk about moving to other countries, you got to talk about it in a way that's like, you're not looking at other countries like there's a best one or there's a perfect one.
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W. Kamau Bell
all of this shit has been destroyed has been like raked over by imperialism and colonialism and capitalism human humanity yeah humanity but what are the things you need to get through your life you know so i think that that's which is why i like because i have kids it's like man i guess i'm gonna have to roll with this america for 12 more years yeah yeah i you wouldn't move them
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W. Kamau Bell
No, I don't – I mean, not – no. Not if I – unless I had to. Unless something like, oh, shit, the National Guard is invading California and they're coming for Oakland, which could happen. But, like, I'm not going to – if things – if I can still figure it out here, I want them to have the life that they want here.
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I'm not going to – because it would be hard on kids to sort of, like – I will – the culture change is not going to be as big for me as it is for them. But I don't want to put them through that.
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I'm trying to find my joy. I don't think I can find it here anymore.
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I feel like vague is totally accurate. And I think it's been longer than 15 years. It's just we didn't. That's how vague it is. Yeah, no one knows how. At some point, we were in the same place, but we weren't like, ah, we didn't.
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W. Kamau Bell
I think it's on Paramount+. It was on Showtime, but I don't think Showtime exists, but it's on Paramount+, and you can buy it on all the things.
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W. Kamau Bell
So yeah, so it all started as like, I mean, for years, I'll say this, like, you know, like... come up with a generation where Bill Cosby's the guy, Cosby Show, I'm the same age as those kids. So I would sort of track all the parts of him and like, oh, what happened when he did the pound cake speech?
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So then after all the crimes came out, after I believed them and realized I did believe them, I don't know at what point I did, but at some point I was like, yeah, this should happen.
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W. Kamau Bell
It's hard to track. In the doc, I say that. I remember when I got into comedy, the two things I heard, the gossip was that Robin Williams steals material and Bill Cosby's a philanderer. Like that was the, that's what I heard. But I mean, I'm an open mic comedian. It's like, well, I guess now that I'm a comedian, I get to know the secrets.
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W. Kamau Bell
And so you heard that, that Bill Cosby, and that was no big like.
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W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, that was like, it was like, yes, I get the, but every, especially as a black person, every minister in every church, there's a kid who looks kind of like him, you know, that is not his wife's kid, you know, whatever. So yeah.
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W. Kamau Bell
They don't make kids that way. So it keeps less evidence. So yeah, so I get excited about the creative process. And then they kept being like, oh, I'm going to call all these comedians. And they're all going to show up and talk about Bill Cosby and what he meant to be. How'd that go? Yeah. Well, Godfrey showed up. I appreciate that. Chris Spencer showed up. I appreciate that.
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W. Kamau Bell
And they were essential to the thing. And so very quickly, I realized, oh, well, I'm going to call the... Cosby was in jail at this point. Oh, I'm going to call the cast. I'm going to email the cast of The Cosby Show and send these letters and da-da-da-da-da. And I had a couple conversations with a couple of them that were great.
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W. Kamau Bell
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And I would never divulge who it was or whatever. Maybe it was nobody. Maybe I'm lying. Maybe I made it up. But yeah, so great conversations, but no. And that's when I realized how deep it was and what I'd gotten into. And that's when you start to go.
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W. Kamau Bell
And also, I know there's like three or four other, at least two other Cosby docs out there that are finished or close to being finished that people have tried to make. that have just, that are sitting on shelves.
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W. Kamau Bell
So I thought maybe this, so I kept thinking, maybe this is just gonna be that. And then COVID hit.
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W. Kamau Bell
Yeah, no, I was just like, I'm just gonna keep making it. And I kept waiting for Showtime. I kept sort of being like, at some point, somebody might tell me, just put your pencils down. We're not doing this.
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W. Kamau Bell
So until that point, I'm just gonna keep sort of like, and the thing that, and this is great about Vinny and Boardwalk, Andrew Freed, is that every time we ran into a creative problem, they were sort of down to figure it out. And every time I had these weird ideas, they were sort of down to let me try them. So it really became like, well, at least I get to do whatever I wanna do. Yeah.
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W. Kamau Bell
So I might as well just do it. And I found a crew of people. I'm directing it through Zoom. Most of those interviews happened on Zoom. But yeah, I kept sort of, and then we had to break during COVID. And I kept sort of being like, maybe it's just dead. And you get a call, we're starting up again. Yay. And then we go back out and film.
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W. Kamau Bell
And what was supposed to be our last day of filming was the day of the book. And we were in Philadelphia. And it was Cosby's, the day he got out of prison. That's in the movie, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have a lot of people who study the case and everything, but nobody was preparing for that. Nobody thought that was coming. Legally, I would argue it was the right thing to do.
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W. Kamau Bell
Yeah. We were in Berkeley, but now we're in Oakland. We've been in Oakland for a while.
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W. Kamau Bell
Well, we talk about that in the thing. It was a bunch of bad decisions, a bunch of bad legal things that had happened. Yeah. So it's not a technicality. People say it's a technicality. But it is a bunch of like. It was honoring an agreement. It was honoring an agreement that the next political attorney general flipped on. Yeah. But people try to frame it as like it proves that he's innocent.
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W. Kamau Bell
It's not that. No. It's about like legalese being not lived up to correctly. And so they let him out. But it had nothing to do with his case about whether or not he did what he did. Because he admitted to what he had done.
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W. Kamau Bell
No, no. I wanted to live in Oakland. When I moved to the Bay Area in 97, I started in Oakland. Then I lived all over in San Francisco for a long time. But I got three mixed race kids, so Oakland is kind of the mixed race kid capital of the world.