Willow Defebaugh

And I loved what you said around safety, because most people don't actually have the luxury of safety to process the news or now what they are scrolling through on their phones.

And I'm curious, is that something that you are thinking about

often and consciously while you are creating your works is how can I make this a space that is safe for people to engage with something that is so ineffable?

There is nothing more inspiring than accepting that you have been blind.

I couldn't agree more.

There's a participatory element to a number of your works.

I mean, I'm thinking about the Weather Project and people spelling things with their bodies and your piece that you were just talking about, Life, the one in Switzerland.

You actually had the whole facade of the space opened up so the more than human world could come in and be actually part of the exhibition, right?

I love that it exposed the sort of power structures of this institution, but through play and experimentation and also reconnection with nature.

But I think there's this idea of the safe space also being something that's not trying to lead someone to an outcome, but rather be a container where people can play and arrive at their own experience or conclusion.

Yeah.

I wanted to end by talking about Icewatch, where you actually brought melting glaciers to people in major cities to witness.

And I was wondering, did that feel...

full circle to you in a way, given what we were talking about with your relationship to Arctic landscapes and being able to bring that into places where people wouldn't necessarily see it up close.

Yes.

Well, I think I speak for so many people listening when I say thank you for creating a space for people to touch and be touched by things that feel so, so massive and scale and hard to hard to grasp.

And thank you for this conversation.

It's a it's a real gift.

At the end of each episode, you often hear me recommend that you go outside and go for a walk in the woods.

But this week, I'm going to suggest that you find your local museum instead.