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Chapter 1: What happened to the five women at the Lane Bryant store?
On a quiet Saturday morning, five women walked into a Lane Bryant store and never came home. The man responsible for their deaths was heard and even described by the lone survivor. But despite nearly being caught, he vanished into thin air. In the years since, new technology, new investigators, and new questions have changed what's possible. But the families are still waiting for answers.
The evidence is still there. And this case isn't cold. It's unfinished. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everybody. Welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Debra Roberts. And as always, it's good having you with us today. We are going to do what we normally do, which is sort of peel away the layers of one of our recent 2020 stories.
Chapter 2: How has technology changed the investigation of stalking cases?
But this one is also an episode where we're going to offer you some information which could save your life or could save the life of somebody you love. You may have heard about this case. We featured it on our 2020 episode, but it originated from a three-part docuseries streaming on Hulu called Stalking Samantha, 13 Years of Terror.
And as the title implies, it is a story of a woman who was stalked for many years. 30-year-old Samantha Stites was kidnapped by a man who stalked her. He held her in a soundproof bunker. Wait till you hear the details of this story. It is truly every woman's nightmare. And believe it or not, stalking is more common than you might think.
Data from the CDC finds that roughly one in five women and one in 10 men have been stalked at some point in their lives. What is this all about? We've all heard about stalking before, but what's the root of it? And what are the chances that it can turn violent? We're going to take a deeper look into this topic with somebody who knows the subject well, Casey Jordan.
She's a criminologist, forensic psychologist, and host of the podcast Criminal Appeal. And she's going to help us sort of understand the mind of somebody who's a stalker. But most important, she's going to offer some warning signs that could help save a life.
Give me a sense of the kinds of stories and the kinds of cases that, I mean, I know they run the gamut, that have given you insight into what this is all about.
Well, stalking is very often part of a much larger trajectory of true violence. But it doesn't always turn violent, though, right? No, it doesn't always turn violent.
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Chapter 3: What is Samantha Stites' story of being stalked?
It depends on how you handle it. And it also depends on law enforcement's reaction to your complaints. Again, every stalker is different. And it's really important to understand what is their motivation if you're going to figure out the best way to handle it. Now, keep in mind that stalking starts with unwarranted contact, right?
This is a person who won't stop once you have pointed out, I don't want you to be in touch with me. The biggest problem, I would argue, especially that women do, because of the way we're socialized, you're kind. And kindness for certain stalkers throws fuel on the fire. It gives them even more power.
They're abusing you, but you're going to soften it and just go, you know what, you're a really nice guy, but I'm just not that interested. They will very often excessively not just follow you, but message you, give you unwanted gifts, which leaves you with a feeling of obligation to thank you. They will follow.
One of the biggest things you have to do is really monitor whether they're following you. It is not a coincidence when they're always in the grocery store in your classes. And this can be really difficult if your stalker is somebody who has an excuse to be in your perimeter. You work together.
you're in the same clubs, things like that, and they figure out what your Achilles heel is, then they exploit that vulnerability of you. There's a number of things that really should, huge red flags, that should make people stand back and think, I have got to take action to stop this.
You were not involved in Samantha's case, but you kind of recognize a lot of what you see here when you heard about this story. I mean, what were your impressions when you heard this young woman stalked by a guy many years?
This one is a classic case where the young man became obsessed with the young woman. And you know, stalking is driven by three important things. You've got a fixation, an obsession, and the pursuit of unwanted contact. So in that particular vein, this is classic. And it elevated, escalated. We know that Samantha and her friends
told him that the attention was unwanted and he needs to stop it, but it only elevated. And he became every, mostly women, as you pointed out, are victims of stalking, every woman's worst nightmare. But what sets this apart from so many other stalking cases is the lengths he went to possess her.
Let's talk about the two of these, these two young people. She's a classic, you know, gal who's close to her family, was involved in her church and they had met. Christopher Thomas initially wanted to connect, wanted to be closer to Samantha. And as you said, the signals were sent that she really wasn't interested in him romantically.
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Chapter 4: What are the psychological effects of stalking on victims?
What exactly? We've heard of restraining orders. What's a PPO?
Well, and they are different. Restraining order and an order of protection are two different things. But the order of protection is a legal document. You have to go and present your evidence and convince a judge that restrictions should be put on this person. And they are very often tailored to the particular situation.
Because so many times orders of protection are actually between people who have had a relationship. That's where it gets complex. Because she's insisting, I've never had a relationship with this guy. It's not like he's an ex-boyfriend. So if you haven't had a prior relationship, it's really important to document, document, document. I'm going to return to that theme later.
But she was able to convince a judge. Here are all the things he's done over the last three years. Not only did I move out of state, but he applied and got into the same program that I was in. Because how do you get to kick somebody out of a program just because they are in it with you? She documented everything.
And the judge was so convinced in this particular case that he gave her an order of protection for six years, which is an incredibly long time.
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Chapter 5: What warning signs indicate someone may be a stalker?
Yeah. In other words, the judge had never done that before, truly believed her and wanted to protect her. And here's the interesting thing. Orders of protection, we often say, aren't worth the paper they're written on, because by the time somebody violates the order of protection, you could be dead. So it's a piece of paper that helps if that person violates it.
A lot of times it will say, do not write, do not call, do not come within 300 yards of this person. And if they do that, you call the police and you've got backup. You've got something that could get them arrested. But in this particular case, he actually followed the parameters of the order and he did not contact her for six years. Right.
He didn't violate, which led people to think that maybe he wasn't a danger. It's important. to know what constitutes stalking because, you know, it's one thing for somebody to follow you and, you know, we think about somebody creepily looking maybe at you as you walk into your home or maybe even stalking you online. What qualifies as stalking?
Now, all 50 states have some version of anti-stalking laws, but they are dramatically different and sometimes they are very vague and open to interpretation.
but the stalking usually has a few elements first of all it is repeated and unwanted uh contact and there's a pattern right so many of our stalking laws do not include their outdated um prohibitions against cyber stalking right there's no law against writing letters to people you can write letters to people and email people all you like but it has to be elevated to the form of harassment
And that very often is a subjective interpretation. So it's really difficult sometimes to convince a judge or a prosecutor or even a cop, if you've called, that this has elevated to the point of unwanted contact that is harassment and the pattern makes me feel threatened.
all of these words are open to interpretation yeah but if the key is unwanted attention and a pattern and a pattern and if you were to make sure you rebuff that person and make it clear you don't want them to continue to contact you that's a whole different thing correct well he thomas eventually after her order expired he starts showing up again he even showed up at her soccer games he's really spooking her big time she's trying to now get another ppo this one has expired right um
What recourse do you have? So you've had something like this in place and now you want to get another one and she had difficulty. Now the next time, what can you do? Now here's where we get into a debate.
He followed her to a whole new town where she relocated after finishing her master's in social work. She got a job in Traverse City, Michigan and settled there. He followed her there. She gets on a soccer team, adult soccer team, and he joins the soccer league. Why should she drop off the soccer team? Why should she be on her?
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