Deborah Roberts

It's Deborah Roberts here to bring you another weekly episode of Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy. Remember, you can catch new episodes a day early if you follow Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And now, here's our next episode.

Imagine the opportunity to beat Tom Brady in sports.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

Robin, George, Michael, GMA. America's favorite number one morning show. The morning's first breaking news. Exclusive interviews. What everyone will be talking about that day. Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA.

Good Morning America.

Put the good in your morning.

Can't get enough 2020 true crime? This podcast is for you. Go behind the scenes of 2020's gripping stories and get exclusive audio you won't hear anyplace else.

Join me, Debra Roberts, for 2020 The After Show, part of the 2020 podcast. Listen now ad-free on Amazon Music.

Can't get enough 2020 true crime? This podcast is for you. Go behind the scenes of 2020's gripping stories and get exclusive audio you won't hear anyplace else.

Join me, Deborah Roberts, for 2020 The After Show, part of the 2020 podcast. Listen now ad-free on Amazon Music. This is the next phase in my therapeutic work.

Breathe out.

This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in.

She is manipulating us. Breathe in. Breathe out. Why are you resisting? Is it too late to get a refund?

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

Robin, George, Michael, GMA. America's favorite number one morning show. The morning's first breaking news, exclusive interviews, what everyone will be talking about that day. Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA.

Good morning, America.

Put the good in your morning. GMA 7A on ABC.

Hi, I'm Debra Roberts here with another weekly episode of what happened to Holly Bobo Remember you can get new episodes early if you follow what happened to Holly Bobo on Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast app now, here's the episode

For the team ready to conquer the grandest stage, immortality wins. Moments of sweat and sacrifice forge the composition of champions. An unforgettable journey is nearing its finale. Four more wins to take home the trophy. The NBA Finals, presented by YouTube TV, begin June 5th on ABC. Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

Breathe out.

This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in. Breathe out.

Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA.

This is Deborah Roberts. Welcome to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Each week, we reach back into our archives and bring you a story we found unforgettable.

Take a listen.

You've been listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Friday nights at 9 on ABC. You can also find all new broadcast episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.

Hi there, this is Debra Roberts. For the next six weeks, the 2020 podcast is going to bring you a new series from our colleagues at ABC Audio, and this one is about Sean Diddy Combs, the hip-hop mogul now facing federal charges, which he denies. Here's ABC's Brian Buckmeyer with Bad Rap, the case against Diddy. Episode one, party's over.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.

This is Deborah Roberts. Welcome to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Each week, we reach back into our archives and bring you a story we found unforgettable.

Do you swear the testimony you're about to give should be the truth or the truth and nothing but the truth?

Oh, my goodness. What have you done? Take a listen.

You've been listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Friday nights at 9 on ABC. You can also find all new broadcast episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.

It's Deborah Roberts here to bring you another weekly episode of Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy. Remember, you can catch new episodes a day early if you follow Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And now, here's our next episode.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

Give me a break. I mean, my four-year-old would do better than this. I want to know the truth. I want to know the truth.

I'm still trying to track that boat down. I just talked to them today and they're still looking for it.

This is Warren. He, uh, OK. Hi. Hi. I'm Keith Crollman.

Did you hurt these people? No. That are missing?

There's no doubt in your mind that two people signed these documents in front of you.

right now see you're hesitant no believe me this is this is what i'm talking about listen to me really well tell me right now the truth those people that are missing sign those documents is what you're telling me i don't believe you you were hesitant to begin with tell me the truth kathleen tell me the truth she was nervous her voice was cracking she was looking down kathleen these people didn't sign these documents in front of you did they

Okay, and you took their thumbprints?

It's either 100 or it's nothing. You're being wishy-washy. Kathleen, give me a break. I mean, my four-year-old would do better than this. Kathleen, no honestly. I want to know the truth. I want to know the truth.

Hi, I'm Debra Roberts here with another weekly episode of what happened to Holly Bobo Remember you can get new episodes early if you follow what happened to Holly Bobo on Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast app now, here's the episode

You did, though, later take out a protection, an order of protection against him. I did. I did.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

For the team ready to conquer the grandest stage, immortality wins. Moments of sweat and sacrifice forge the composition of champions. An unforgettable journey is nearing its finale. Four more wins to take home the trophy. The NBA Finals, presented by YouTube TV, begin June 5th on ABC.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.

A fighter to the finish. Remember Kim Pack's civil case to get her mother's life insurance?

This is Deborah Roberts. Wild Crime was produced by Lone Wolf Media for ABC News Studios. Next week, we'll bring you Episode 3. You can also stream it on Hulu. And of course, when you're there, you can also find more from 2020.

This is Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. This week, we're bringing you episode two of Wild Crime, Eleven Skulls. It's called You've Got Your Monster.

Tonight, a daughter's discovery of family secrets and scandals leading to a dramatic showdown.

Now we're taking you inside her obsessed six-year crusade to catch the killer. What kind of crime?

Before this hour is over, there will be another shocking death. But is that the end of the story?

This is Deborah Roberts. Welcome to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Each week, we reach back into our archives and bring you a story we found unforgettable.

Oh, my goodness. What have you done? Take a listen.

Thanks for listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. We hope you'll join us Friday nights at 9 on ABC for all new broadcast episodes. See you then.

It's Deborah Roberts here to bring you another weekly episode of Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy. Remember, you can catch new episodes a day early if you follow Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And now, here's our next episode.

Thank you. We needed that.

Yeah, I want to know, did you go to anger management or something? Something happened in Diddy's life. Like what happened?

Yeah, the NBA playoffs are here. And it's about to be ridiculous. Unbelievable. Unfair. Damn right nasty. Straight up. Can't miss. Don't blink. Grab your popcorn and strap in cinnamon. This isn't about who's next. This is about who's now. This time, it's different. The NBA playoffs presented by Google. Continue on ESPN and ABC. Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

Went to the kennels or?

Hi, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. We're bringing you more 2020 each week with the 2020 True Crime Vault. That's right. You're going to hear a story pulled from our archives. Shows that we just can't seem to get out of our heads. And we think you're going to be drawn in, too. Thanks for listening.

You've been listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Friday nights at 9 on ABC, you can also find all new broadcast episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.

Hi, I'm Debra Roberts here with another weekly episode of what happened to Holly Bobo Remember you can get new episodes early if you follow what happened to Holly Bobo on Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast app now, here's the episode

Breathe out.

This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in. Breathe out.

Her life and the circumstances around her death continue to grip the nation. Here's episode one, The Tapes.

This is the next phase in my therapeutic work.

This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in. Breathe out.

Hi there, 2020 listeners, it's Deborah Roberts. This week, we're dropping a new true crime investigative series into your feed from our colleagues at ABC Audio. It's called Radioactive, The Karen Silkwood Mystery. It's all about the country's first nuclear whistleblower. 50 years ago this week, Karen Silkwood died in a fatal car crash.

Join me, Deborah Roberts, for 2020 The After Show, part of the 2020 podcast. Listen now ad-free on Amazon Music.

You're beginning to make the press. There are newspaper headlines. What did you make of that?

You eventually go to the district attorney's office, and what do you learn?

The district attorney is trying to track her down, and you want to be helpful in this.

So you were arrested again? Yes. What did you think? What did you feel?

At this moment, it's pretty clear to everybody you've dealt with that there is no money, that you're no German heiress. Were you living a lie? I don't feel I was, no.

Many people see you as the ultimate scammer. Are you scamming us? Do you call scams?

You were taken to Rikers Island, one of the most frightening jails in the country. What was that like for you? Were you terrified?

You were there for 19 months? Yes. Did you feel that you were in danger ever?

Did you have celebrity status in jail? I definitely did, yes. And then you strike a Netflix deal.

So you're essentially making money off of this. I mean, was it kind of a joke to you?

You were still behind bars?

But Anna, what defendant has clothes brought in by a stylist?

Prosecutors said that your story was lie after lie after lie. That's what they told the jury.

What were you expected to provide as proof that you have these millions and millions of dollars overseas?

Anna never testified in court, and during our interview, her lawyer wouldn't let her answer many of my questions about those dealings with the banks. The impression that they get from documents is that you have a lot of money in accounts. Was that by design? Um, yes. So you wanted them to think that you had a lot of money to put up?

Did you have that amount of money in overseas accounts? I can't answer that. And how do you come up with bank statements? I can't answer that. How were you able to falsify documents?

February 11th, you walked out of prison a free woman.

When you look at the evidence that the prosecution presented, it looks like this was... A scam.

What did that feel like?

Your lawyer at the time said that you did nothing wrong, that you exploited a system easily seduced by glitz and glamour, that you told little white lies. Is that what happened?

When did you begin to realize that you could not afford your life and pay people back?

What was the first thing you did?

But the one thing Anna couldn't fix was the actual truth behind her identity. Who was this heiress and where did she come from? Surely not from wealth.

You had not seen Anna for a long time. What was it like when you walked in that courtroom to testify?

If she wasn't born an heiress, then who exactly was she? The woman who claimed to be Anna Delvey was actually born Anna Sorokin, far from the skyscrapers of Manhattan in a small town in Russia. You were born in Russia. Yes. What was your childhood like? Were you happy?

How did you wind up in Germany as a family?

What did your parents do?

Those dreams would eventually lead to Paris. Following her lifelong interest in fashion, she eventually got a position at a glossy magazine called Purple. And Anna Sorokin morphed into Anna Delvey.

Let me just have you say, pronounce, and spell your name, please.

Were you trying to escape something?

And that's when she began telling everybody about the idea for that art center, the Anna Delvey Foundation. And she had to come up with money to make it happen. Everything after that leads back to that courtroom in Lower Manhattan, and Rachel taking the stand in an emotional moment, telling about that trip to Morocco.

What was that like for you as you watched her, your friend, testifying against you?

How would you describe the real Anna Delvey? Who is she?

There are some people who would say you benefited from her greed. They don't see you as a victim.

Remember, the charges against Anna go a lot farther than just that one situation with Rachel. No matter what the jurors think about Rachel, as deliberations begin, the big question is, what do they think about Anna?

What are you feeling as the jury is deliberating?

When you hear guilty, what do you think?

Some of the jurors didn't feel sympathetic for your situation with Anna. How did that feel for you?

Do you think that her sentence was just?

Even in prison?

After the guilty verdict, you are sent to Albion Correctional Facility.

You wanted to go back to Rikers? Why?

And remember that Netflix deal of more than $300,000? Well, it turns out the New York state law won't let Anna profit from her crimes. So that money first has to be used to pay back her victims.

On February 11th, after spending just under four years of her four to 12 year sentence in prison, Anna is released early for good behavior.

You're just a few weeks out of prison, but yet you're still active.

Anna even goes so far as to call herself a professional defendant. This doesn't look like a woman who has been through prison and who has learned something from prison. You're casually, happily back on social media.

But Anna, you have people following you on social media who say things like queen and I'm so pleased for you. I mean, it almost seems like this is just sort of a game to you.

Anna has been held in detention in immigration custody since March. Her lawyer has been trying to get her released.

Who is the real Anna Delvey?

Anna was in her early 20s when she showed up in New York City from Paris back in 2013. She had come from a middle class background, she had no job, but somehow once she was here through a combination of deception and assumptions, people got the impression that she was wealthy.

Many people see you as the ultimate scammer. Are you scamming us?

Thanks for listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. We hope you'll join us Friday nights at 9 on ABC for all new broadcast episodes. See you then.

This is Deborah Roberts. Welcome to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Each week, we reach back into our archives and bring you a story we found unforgettable.

The impression is that you're kind of like sliding through life and you don't have to sign for anything and people just kind of let you do what you want. I guess, yes. So if you're creating the illusion that you have a certain amount of money, even though you don't, did you see that as a problem? Not at the time. but it would soon become a big problem, a criminal matter.

The trouble began when Anna set her sights on this historic building in midtown Manhattan. As outrageous as it sounds, this young, unemployed newcomer with no business experience believed that she could fake her way into getting the millions of dollars necessary to turn it into her dream come true.

How did they treat you, this young 20-something, with these grand ideas for a project?

Did you tell people that you were an heiress? Absolutely not.

Oh, my goodness. What have you done? Take a listen. dealt with, that there is no money, that you're no German heiress. Were you living a lie?

How did you meet Anna Delvey?

You would pay for things, mostly, when you two went out. Why?

So it was pretty casual, but you figured she had money.

She would later on say, she just assumed you were a socialite.

But she would soon learn that not everything was what it seemed. I mean, not even Anna's last name, Delvey? She made that up. Her real name was Sorokin. Where's the name Delvey come from? I just came up with it. You just made it up? Yes. It's not a family name? No. You just like that better than Sorokin? Yes.

This is the first time you've sat down for a television interview. Why are you talking with us?

Little did she know that a trap was about to be laid that was going to lead to her downfall.

Your eyes must have been popping out of your head.

Why are you treating everybody a $7,000 a night room?

So now you have a tab of 60 plus thousand dollars? Yes.

She's reaching out to you to pay her back. Do you know that she is beside herself with worry about the card?

You're texting Anna. No reimbursement. What are you thinking?

At this stage, you don't have the money to pay Rachel.

It's Deborah Roberts here to bring you another weekly episode of Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy. Remember, you can catch new episodes a day early if you follow Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And now, here's our next episode.

Imagine what's possible when learning doesn't get in the way of life. At Capella University, our game changing flex path learning format lets you set your own deadline so you can learn at a time and pace that works for you. It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. This is Deborah Roberts. Welcome to the 2020 True Crime Vault.

This is Deborah Roberts. You're about to hear what happened to Holly Bobo. In this series, ABC News' Eva Pilgrim will take you through the twists and turns of a murder case that captivated Tennessee and the nation. Here's Episode 1.

FX presents Welcome to Wrexham. For the last four years, it's been this rollercoaster of magic. The Emmy Award-winning series returns.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

Breathe out.

This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in. Breathe out.

Hi, I'm Debra Roberts, here with another weekly episode of What Happened to Holly Bobo. Remember, you can get new episodes early if you follow What Happened to Holly Bobo on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Now, here's the episode.

Yeah, you wouldn't make it on there. So sorry.

Breathe out. This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in.

Er hat ihn ermordet.

Er hat ihn ermordet.

Hi, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. We're bringing you more 2020 each week with the 2020 True Crime Vault. That's right. You're going to hear a story pulled from our archives. Shows that we just can't seem to get out of our heads. And we think you're going to be drawn in, too. Thanks for listening.

You've been listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Friday nights at 9 on ABC. You can also find all new broadcast episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.

Hi there, 2020 listeners. It's Deborah Roberts here. We're going to bring you the next installment of our six-part series on Sean Diddy Combs. Here's Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy, Episode 2, Invincible.

Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

Rise up and fight for your freedom.

Good Morning America.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

Good Morning America.

This is Debra Roberts. In November of 2024, Richard Allen was found guilty on all charges for the kidnapping and murder of Abby Williams and Libby German. He's scheduled to be sentenced next month. Who is the Delphi Killer was produced by Impact by Nightline and is streaming on Hulu. Be sure to tune in on Friday nights at 9 for all new episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.

Hey there, 2020 listeners. This is Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. Today on the podcast, the chilling story of two young girls murdered in broad daylight and the tireless hunt to track down their killer. The story comes from our colleagues at Impact by Nightline. It's called, Who is the Delphi Killer?

Breathe out.

This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in. Breathe out.

This is Deborah Roberts. Join us next week for the chilling conclusion of Wild Crime, Eleven Skulls. Wild Crime is a production of Lone Wolf Media for ABC News Studios. You can find all four seasons of Wild Crime streaming on Hulu. And of course, while you're there, you can also find episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.

Hi, it's Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. You're about to hear the third installment of our four-part series, Wild Crime, 11 Skulls. Here's episode three, Because They're Mine.

The entire purpose of going inside of this apartment was to find out what happened.

The first 24 to 48 hours are critical in a missing persons case. There's a couple of reasons for that. If somebody is hurt or injured and that's the case, you have to find them within that period of time so that you can administer medical care.

The other reason why it's critical is the more time that ticks on, in the modern era, there are too many ways for a human being to reach out to a family member to let them know that they're okay. Her dad and her family were looking for her and trying to text her and see where she was, and she wasn't responding. That starts to at least indicate to investigators that foul play may be the situation.

After she's not reported for her classes, the temple police talk to the family. They talk to the friends. And when they do that, they get an idea of where Jenna was.

Temple University is, in my opinion, a safe place. The normal kind of crime you're talking about there from a prosecutor's perspective are, for the most part, petty crimes. The surrounding neighborhoods, you have a different story. Crime in Philadelphia is obviously a problem. The murder rate is very high. It's one of the highest in the country.

So at that point, what investigators do is try to see if they could find Jenna Burley's phone. The last time any activity happens on Jenna Burley's phone is August 31, 2017.

After that, her phone doesn't have any more activity. And the last general area that they could put the phone in is in the general area of PubWeb.

So the detectives were able to not only talk to the people that worked there, but review the footage themselves.

Closer to the 2 o'clock hour, PubWeb's going to close. A young man approaches her at the bar where she's sitting and starts buying her drinks. There's beer on the table. There's definitely conversation being had. That's the only person that's left with her. All of her friends are gone.

After investigators see this footage, it became very clear that Jenna, at the end of the night, had left with the young man that she was having drinks with. The detectives were able to ask the people that worked at PubWeb whether or not they knew that individual at all, or if he had been there before. They did know him. He was a regular. His name was Joshua Hupnerts.

At this point, this is critical because the police now at least have a confirmed place where they were last and a confirmed person that they were with.

His recollection is that he did not know where she went, had no other information for investigators. They're certainly not done with Joshua Hubbard. They want to bring him down. They want to talk to him. They want to potentially see where he went after that. But at that point, they don't have any other reason to believe that he's not telling the truth.

Investigators were interested in going to meeting with him in person and also going to his apartment.

Once Hupperters doesn't meet them at the apartment building, they look outside, and there's a sign. They call the number on the sign, and it happens to go to the landlord. Somebody who works for the landlord's company comes out, and he's got a key. Now, at this point, the investigators are concerned about Jenna Burleigh. They don't have a warrant to go inside the house.

They're looking for Joshua Hupperters, but he's not answering. So you are creeping up now on 24, 36 hours since her disappearance. At that point, they ask the person to open up the apartment so that they can go in to look for her to make sure that she's not in there hurt, injured, or otherwise. So at this point, we're not talking about a criminal search warrant.

We're talking about a search for a missing girl. They're not going to toss the apartment. They're not searching inside of sock drawers, et cetera. They're not collecting evidence. They're not even photographing anything. The entire purpose of going inside of this apartment was just to make sure Jenna was either there and okay or to find out what happened.

And they didn't get any other answers by looking through the apartment the way they did.

At some point in this investigation, they learned that Joshua Huppert has had a roommate. If Jenna Burleigh had gone back to that apartment, it also became important to talk to the roommate. The roommate talked to the Temple Police. He told them that he didn't know who this woman was, that he had gone home from the bar that night on loan, and he had also been drinking pretty heavily.

They asked whether or not he could get in touch with Joshua Huppertz. So somewhere in the afternoon, it was actually the roommate who put a call into Mr. Huppertort saying, the police are looking for you. You need to call them back. They have some questions about a girl that went missing.

The next thing that investigators start to do is because Joshua Hupperturts has not met with them and refuses to basically be questioned at this point, they started asking people at the address whether or not they knew who Joshua Hupperturts was.

They start to get up on his phone to see where he might be physically.

So once investigators realize that Joshua Hubbard is nowhere near Philadelphia, they decide they're going to involve other law enforcement agencies. Specifically, they call it up to the state police.

And there they start to have a conversation. The state troopers let Mr. Huppertritz know that they're looking for Jenna Burley and he's the last person that was seen with her. He tells them that he's already talked to people at Temple University and that he's given all the information that he has.

So as trained investigators, they start asking some questions.

So they ask him whether or not he's willing to continue the conversations, to which he says yes.

At that point, investigators know that it's crucial to document the condition of Mr. Huppertz at that time. So he's photographed. His hands are photographed, his chest is photographed, his neck's photographed. So the observations that are made by the state police at Winhali, PA are now preserved so law enforcement can see exactly how Joshua Huppertz looked on September 1st, 2017.

What investigators know at this point is that Jen is still missing. They also now have surveillance footage that is putting her with Joshua Huppertitz. They know where Joshua Huppertitz lives, and the best of the surveillance footage they could put together at the time suggests that she went home with him.

When the police looked for Jenna in Huppertitz's apartment earlier that day, they did not collect any evidence. But now, they had enough to obtain a search warrant. They entered the apartment, they collected evidence, and they documented the scene.

On that bowl, there clearly appeared to be what was human blood.

On September 2nd, 2017, there was basically a break in the case.

This was the sort of bin that college students routinely used to put in their stuff, their books, a lot of their worldly possessions as they were moving around. And then he opened it up. He opens up the bin. He finds a young woman, obviously deceased. The state troopers once again respond. This time they have a search warrant. They searched the whole property.

And it's obvious to investigators almost immediately that they found Jenna Burleigh's body.

They searched the house. And they found a bag. And inside that bag, they found basic clothing items. a few pairs of underwear, some socks, T-shirts, and $3,000 of cash. Josh Hubbard was not sticking around. He was gonna dump that body in the lake, and we were never gonna see him again.

Philadelphia District Attorney's Office charged him with murder, abuse of a corpse, possession of an instrument of crime, and tampering with evidence. So at this point, while Joshua Huppertitz has been charged, this investigation is far from over.

The investigators obtained surveillance footage not just from PubWeb, but from different cameras around the city.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

After investigators see this footage, investigators are able to determine that it's Joshua Hupcher's cousin caught on camera carrying the bin that later contained or found to contain Jenna Burley's body. Obviously, they need to talk to the cousin about what happened. Investigators are able to speak to the cousin, and they ask him about what happened.

He tells them that he got a call and also a text from Huppertus saying, I need your help. When he arrived in the apartment, the only person that was there was Joshua Huppertus, and he saw the large blue bin sitting in the living room. He didn't think much of it, he said. He grabbed the bin, and he helped his cousin move it out. He did know that it was very heavy. He was surprised by the weight.

So investigators were trying to figure out how it was exactly that Joshua Hupsters eventually got the body up to Holly, PA. They discovered that he'd used a lift. Through the help of the lift, they're actually able to find who the driver was, and they interview him.

From there, Hubbard says, I'll pay you $200 cash. We need to go to Holly, PA. Don't put it in your Lyft. Don't put it in your GPS. I'll tell you where to go and how to do it. He tells the Lyft driver to drop him off at his grandmother's house. They both take the bin out of the trunk and leave it in the driveway.

This is Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. This week, we'll be starting season two of Death in the Dorms. It's a true crime series from ABC Studios that tells the stories of young people whose lives were cut tragically short during their time on campus and the subsequent investigations into their untimely deaths.

There were some significant injuries that sort of began to tell the story of what actually happened that night.

What was significant was the cause of death, and that was strangulation. The medical examiner was able to determine that the blood flow had been blocked to her brain, and that's how she died. She had what they call defensive injuries all over her hands and all over her arms.

This is a circumstantial case. Nobody ever saw anybody kill Jenna Burley. There was going to be no eyewitness testimony. There's no recording. There's nothing of that nature. You have to prove your case through circumstantial evidence.

We had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Joshua Huffington has committed this crime, but we also had to make sure we let the jury know there wasn't a shred of truth that the roommate was involved whatsoever.

The photograph of her when they first discovered her out in the shed was horrific. And it's something I'm never going to forget.

In my personal opinion, the most compelling piece of evidence in this entire case was the fact that they found Joshua Hubbard's DNA underneath Jenna Burley's fingernails. It was as if Jenna Burleigh was the person that actually got to testify in the end to who her killer was.

Because when that was analyzed, the entire narrative about the roommate being involved whatsoever was obviously immediately extinguished, and there was only two people that were part of that DNA sample. Hupperterts was the source, or Jenna Burleigh was the source, of all the other biological material that was collected as part of that crime scene.

On January 17th, 2019, it was time for closing arguments. Defense went first, I went second, and then the judge charged. The charge is when he tells the jury of the law that they have to apply to the facts coming to their verdict. Then the jury went out, and they were back within two hours with a verdict.

This is Deborah Roberts. Tune in next week for the story of a nursing student from Binghamton University whose murder sent shockwaves throughout her community, igniting an international manhunt. Death in the Dorms was produced by ABC News Studios with the Intellectual Property Corporation and, yes, like a river for Hulu Originals. You can find the whole series streaming on Hulu.

And be sure to catch us on Friday nights at 9 for all new broadcast episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

In our first episode, we'll hear the story of Jenna Burley, a passionate social justice advocate at Temple University, who vanished after spending a night out with her friends, leaving only questions in her wake. Take a listen.

Temple University is, in my opinion, a safe place. The surrounding neighborhoods, you have a different story.

The case continues to unfold, and there are still lingering questions

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.

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Hi there, 2020 listeners. This is Deborah Roberts. This week, we're bringing you episode four of Death in the Dorms, season two. Today, you'll hear the story of Max Groover, a first-year student at Louisiana State University and a fraternity pledge event that spiraled violently out of control.

This is Debra Roberts. Join us next week to hear the story of a thrill-seeker from the College of Charleston whose search for adventure continues. led him down a dangerous path. Death in the Dorms was produced by ABC News Studios with the Intellectual Property Corporation and Yes Like a River for Hulu Originals. You can find the entire series streaming on Hulu.

And be sure to tune in to ABC Friday Nights at 9 for all new broadcast episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.

This is Deborah Roberts. You can catch Episode 2 of Wild Crime in our feed next week. The series was produced by Lone Wolf Media for ABC News Studios. You can stream all four seasons of Wild Crime on Hulu. And while you're there, of course, you can always find more from 2020.

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Robin, George, Michael, GMA. America's favorite number one morning show. The morning's first breaking news. Exclusive interviews. What everyone will be talking about that day. Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA.

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The NBA playoffs presented by Google. Continue on ESPN and ABC. Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

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Hey there, 2020 listeners. This is Deborah Roberts. This week, we'll be bringing you the sixth and final episode of Death in the Dorms. In our closing episode, you'll hear the story of Katie Autry, a first-year student at Western Kentucky University, and a horrendous act of violence that leaves police struggling to find answers. Let's listen.

This is Deborah Roberts. That does it for Season 1 of Death in the Dorms. The series was produced by ABC News Studios with the Intellectual Property Corporation and, yes, like a river, for Hulu Originals. It's now streaming on Hulu.

Next week, we're bringing you a new series, Radioactive, the Karen Silkwood Mystery, an original ABC audio podcast marking the 50th anniversary of the nuclear whistleblower's death. For all new broadcast episodes of 2020, remember to join us Friday nights at 9 on ABC. Thanks for listening.

This is Deborah Roberts. Wild Crime was produced by Lone Wolf Media for ABC News Studios. Next week we'll be back with a new series from 2020 called Bad Romance. Tales of heartbreak, betrayal and the unexpected twist that can happen when love turns sour. Don't forget you can find seasons 1 through 4 of Wild Crime streaming on Hulu along with more episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.

This is Deborah Roberts. Our story was produced by Impact by Nightline and includes footage from Newsday TV. You can find Gilgo Beach Murders, A Serial Killer's Secrets streaming on Hulu. Next week, we'll bring you a brand new season of Wild Crime. We'll follow along as special agents who work for our national parks hunt an elusive killer. Thanks for listening.

This is Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. This week, we'll be bringing you a deep dive into the Gilgo Beach murders from Impact by Nightline. The number of alleged victims has grown. Prosecutors now have charged a Manhattan architect with the deaths of seven women. Here's an inside look at the alleged double life of the accused killer.

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Good Morning America.

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Oh, my God, it's so humble.

Hi, it's Debra Roberts. For the next eight weeks, we're excited to bring you a special series on the 2020 podcast. It's called Bad Romance. The series unravels the shocking true crime stories of love turned lethal. Take a listen.

Rise up and fight for your freedom.

So you made this conscious decision to give yourself to your son, to the relationship.

This is Deborah Roberts. Welcome to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Each week, we reach back into our archives and bring you a story we found unforgettable.

Oh my goodness! What have you done? Take a listen.

You've been listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Friday nights at 9 on ABC. You can also find all new broadcast episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.

Join me, Debra Roberts, for 2020 The After Show, part of the 2020 podcast. Listen now ad-free on Amazon Music.

Join me, Deborah Roberts, for 2020 The After Show, part of the 2020 podcast. Listen now ad-free on Amazon Music.

This is Deborah Roberts. We hope you were just as interested as we were in Bad Rap, the case against Diddy. Sean Combs' trial is set to get underway very soon, and Brian Buckmeyer will be in the courtroom following it all, the prosecution, the defense, and anything unexpected. Bad Rap will be covering the trial with new episodes twice a week over in the Bad Rap feed.

If you want to keep up on what's sure to be a dramatic trial, follow Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We've also put a link to the show in today's episode description. And now here's a preview from Brian.

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Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

As for Baker, David, he has exhausted all of his state appeals. For an inside look at tonight's 2020, join me for our brand new podcast, 2020 The After Show. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts.

This is Debra Roberts. To hear the backstory to this episode, join me for the 2020 After Show. Every Monday, I'm going to talk with correspondents, producers, some of those folks behind the scenes who bring you these stories. And you're going to hear bonus tape that's not necessarily included in the episode. That's 2020 The After Show, Mondays in your 2020 podcast feed.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.

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The Hulu Original Series. Good American Family. New episodes Wednesdays, streaming on Hulu.

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And how incredible, David. Catherine Edwards' killer, Clayton Foreman, will be eligible for parole in 30 years. He'll be in his 90s. He's appealing his conviction. That's our program for tonight. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts.

This episode is sponsored by Get Contact. Do you remember back in the days of cell phones when the only people who had your number were friends and loved ones who were actually trying to get in touch with you? Well, these days, with all the spam text and robocalls from uncertain numbers, it feels like that era is long gone. That's how Get Contact comes in handy.

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This episode is sponsored by the podcast Death County PA from Wondery. When Lamont Jones learns that his young cousin died in custody just weeks after entering prison, his world shatters. The official report said natural causes, but how do bruises and missing teeth fit that explanation?

Grief turns to frustration as Lamont faces an impossible choice, accept the story being told or risk everything to uncover the truth about what happened. From Wondery comes Death County, PA, a chilling true story of corruption, cover-ups, and one man's pursuit of justice. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many in Dauphin County Prison, and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried.

With never-before-heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County P.A. pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. You can follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to all episodes of Death County PA early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

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And David, as for John Mello and Bradley Post, both men remain in jail awaiting trials. That's our program for tonight. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts.

This is Debra Roberts. To hear the backstory to this episode, join me for the 2020 After Show. Every Monday, I'm going to talk with correspondents, producers, some of those folks behind the scenes who bring you these stories. And you're going to hear bonus tape that's not necessarily included in the episode. That's 2020 The After Show, Mondays in your 2020 podcast feed.

Yeah.

Whenever she came up missing, probably in the middle of the week.

A mother of four gone missing then found murdered.

And I'm Deborah Roberts. From all of us here at 2020 and ABC News, good night.

But everything isn't what it seems when a decades-old family secret comes to light. An all-new 2020 begins right now.

David, she has exhausted her appeals, but she says she still plans to fight for her freedom. That's our program for tonight. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts.

Not the crime itself, but who the people were and how they got to that point, whether it's the victim or whether it might be the perpetrator. And the same thing with Sabrina Limon, too, just trying to get to know her. And, you know, we did, I think, a good job of painting that picture of her, too, as a person.

Yeah, her son. Yeah, the human touch, I think, is what's so important. And that's what you and our producers do so well. And Gary, you did such a great job on the story.

We're going to do more of it, you and I. And as for Sabrina Limon, her federal petition challenging her convictions was denied, so she's still in prison. We'll do a follow-up, I'm sure, on this at some point.

Well, Gary, thank you so much for coming in. This is so rare that we actually get a chance to take a moment and breathe.

And talk about these stories that we cover, but it's always a pleasure to work with you.

Well, we'll be back next Monday with a new 2020 after show just for you. And we're curious, what questions do you have about 2020 that you might want us to answer on this podcast? Because we're here to do that for you. Are there things you've always wondered about? We're planning a listener mailbag episode when we can answer your questions. So reach out to us.

We want to hear what you have to say and make them interesting questions, okay? Well, tune in on Friday nights at 9 to watch the latest 2020 show on ABC. Or, of course, you can listen Saturday in your 2020 podcast feed. 2020 After Show is produced by Cameron Chertavian and Sasha Oslanian.

And, of course, we always have help from our producers like Gary Nguyen, Joseph Rhee, who's here on this one, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen is the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. Laura Mayer is the executive producer.

The Stolen Girl series premiere April 16th on Freeform and stream on Hulu.

Is this just a spiritual discussion or is it a roadmap to foul play? Well, police arrested Jonathan and Sabrina for the murder, but without enough evidence against her, Sabrina actually was able to walk free until that's a big until in a shocking twist. Jonathan agreed to testify against the woman who was his lover in exchange for pleading guilty to manslaughter.

And this all happened just days before the trial. Wow. It was a doozy. I reported this story with producer Gary Wynn, whom I've had the pleasure of working with for years. Gary, this is so great to have you actually in the studio to talk like this. Absolutely.

You and I have worked together over the years.

What a story. I remember when you came to me about it, and we, you know, Joe Reed, the senior producer, was involved in it, and we were all talking about how bizarre this story was, and also the area, you know, out in this sort of remote part of California. You and I headed out to Tehachapi. I still have trouble pronouncing it, Tehachapi. Yes.

The couple at the center of it, Robert and Sabrina Limon, they appear to be living an idyllic life with their two kids in Silver Lakes, California. And by all accounts, they were an outgoing couple. They loved to party. They'd become a part of a tight-knit group of couples who called themselves the Wolfpack.

And I remember driving through the Mojave Desert, and it was just so bizarre.

All these little behind the scenes moments.

But then I show up.

The sun came out. Yeah, you know, people often ask about how we, you know, shot our stories and what it was like on the ground. And it is sort of interesting. I mean, obviously, we're reporting on these very intense and tragic stories. But those little moments like your flood in the hotel and us, you know, and my driving there.

And, you know, literally, it looked like a moonscape when I was out there, you know, and you and I laughed a little bit about that. But This is a story that had mystery, infidelity, religion. I mean, it was one of those classics that almost felt like a TV show, right? You've got a couple who seem to have like that great marriage. But, you know, there were challenges in trying to report this, too.

I mean, the crime took place in an industrial park, private property. You know, people don't realize what we have to go through to kind of get these things going.

Exactly.

Yeah, because it was like a big storage unit. And sometimes these things aren't the most attractive things that we're shooting. So you have to find the producers, you have to find a way to sort of bring them to life and make it make sense to the audience because otherwise, you know, visually it just doesn't, it doesn't tell the story.

But then Robert was found murdered in a remote industrial complex where he had been working. The illusion of their perfect marriage and life just crumbled. As authorities investigated the death, they discovered that not only did the couple have an open marriage, but Sabrina was having a full-blown relationship with a man who was much younger, a firefighter named Jonathan Hearn.

Hi there, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts here, and welcome to 2020 The After Show. Today, we're talking about one of our classic true crime tales that we bring you on 2020 on a regular basis. This one is a story of love, betrayal, and murder. The episode was called Unholy Matrimony.

Yeah. The security camera.

Yeah, that played a big part in the story, that security camera footage.

You get on the case. You're looking at all the crime scene pictures, videos, so forth. Now, when you're looking out here... Many times there's cameras everywhere. Do you even think that there might be surveillance cameras out here?

You were just hoping that this would show you something. You didn't know what you were going to get.

And he was quite a character. Not only was he thorough, but I just remember he had this sunburn on his face because he had these lines on his face. He had his sunglasses on, but that's how hot it was out where we were.

Yeah, I noticed that as soon as we sat down. But what a police officer, though.

One of the things that our audience doesn't always know is even though they see all these like sweeping, interesting shots of the story, there's a lot going into putting all this together. And I remember you had drones out there.

So, you know, I want to talk about the clues in solving this case, but let's also talk about how we brought it to the audience because I remember being out there and you're placing me in this place and that place and trying to make sure we captured the camera. And you even had the camera rolling to take shots of us while we're out walking.

So talk about how you bring all of that together for the audience.

In a very creative way. Well, let's get back to the story then. So, Gary, the detectives had evidence that the assailant actually fled on a motorcycle. It's a great visual, but we didn't have it. So how do you work to bring that part of the story to life?

And he rode a long time on that motorcycle to get to this location. Absolutely.

Then police learned, of course, This guy who's on the motorcycle was Sabrina's lover, Jonathan Hearn. And in the story, you learn how as they start to untangle, they realize that she's having this affair. He owned a motorcycle. All the details matched up. And on that camera, it was so interesting, that security camera, the person that they saw was limping.

After Robert's murder, detectives decided to wiretap Sabrina and Jonathan's phones to listen in. Let's hear a clip from the show.

And this guy was faking a limp on the way into the industrial park. And that was also something that was significant because they weren't sure. Was it a disabled person? And they went looking for people in the neighborhood. Maybe it was somebody who was homeless. And that was a whole ordeal as well.

Would be out in that area. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Oh, so many great details. Well, when we come back, the kinds of small details that producers look for when they're out shooting a story for us that help tell the story of the victim and who they were in life. So stay with us.

All right. We're back. And I'm here with Gary Nguyen, my partner in crime, as we can say, I guess, when we're out shooting these stories. Let's get back to our story, Gary. So after Sabrina Limon was first arrested and then released because police didn't really have enough evidence to charge her, talk about the community's reaction, because this was a small community.

They were well known in this community and liked in this community. And it kind You kind of led a little bit of a racy life there with the kind of open marriage and all of that. But what about the community?

Just to get away from all of that.

So let's talk about Robert Limon, because he was a very well-loved guy. He was a devoted dad from everything that we heard. And the night that he died, his daughter was calling him because she wanted to talk to him about the first day of school, the next day. But of course, when somebody dies, they're very much of an offstage character.

So you have to work a little harder to paint a picture of who they are. And you went out of the way to find people who knew him to paint a nice picture of who this guy was as a dad and a husband.

Yeah. You know, those are the things I think that our viewers and then, of course, here are listeners really gravitate to because. These are people, you know, we do these stories and yes, they're crime stories, but these are real people. And I remember our producer, our executive producer was really touched by the football coach.

And that was a little element that we found that we just thought would shed light because this is somebody that this guy knew long ago, but it told you a little bit about who they are. And somebody said to me the other day, one of the things they find so interesting about these stories of true crime is that

don't you find yourself asking, folks, what about divorce?

in these love relationships is that you know at the root of it as we said there's often obsession things that have gone wrong and people who just either snap or just do the unthinkable why do you think people are so fascinated by these stories it's because of love and i know that sounds trite for some people but love is just this basic human emotion that we all want to feel

Okay, all right.

Explosive situations. Well, that's why they call it a crime of passion, obviously. You know, you mentioned the messiness of that one. And another story that I covered, too, that was pretty messy but also involved all of this betrayal was one that we called Barefoot Witness. And this one still sticks with me, too, because I'm just blown away sometimes that people can actually—

turn on someone that they purported to love right and not just turn on them but just become violent and this was the story of a school teacher lintel washington she was voted teacher of the year she was a woman who by all accounts was you know just a you know a great educator but sadly she didn't do so well in the department of you know picking men She was in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

She really wanted love. In this case, when we start off the story, it begins with her three-year-old daughter who is discovered wandering alone in a parking lot in Baton Rouge with blood on her feet. And days later, an extensive search turns up her mom's body.

I worked on this story, and I was just not only shocked, first of all, that there's a three-year-old child involved and who had to witness, you know, something horrible, but that the man that Lentel, you know, loved and thought loved her would actually wind up being charged here. So let's listen to a clip from this story.

A new love, the promise of a new family. It's everything Lintel's been hoping for. But she has no idea what truly lies ahead. Something horrible has happened to Lintel Washington. And where is she? So you hear from her friends there who, you know, were advising her and felt so horrible. But when you think about Ryan, her child, her daughter caught in the wreckage of this murder.

And she gave the lead to investigators because she's so tiny, but she was able to say Mr. Robbie put the blood in the car and that started to lead police to him.

Like on television.

yeah yeah and that trauma when you think about that well i got to meet the daughter years later and she seemed to be doing pretty well but you know that that's something she's going to live with well ryan we're going to take another quick break and when we come back we want to hear more about what's coming up in the bad romance series

We're back with Ryan Smith. And Ryan, this has been so intriguing talking about these stories that you and I cover. And I'm just amazed that people stop you on the street because they feel so connected to these stories.

You're absolutely right. And people often want to know about the particular people that we interview. And I don't know how you feel about it, but, you know, at the end of the day, these are horrible crimes. They are traumatic situations. People's lives have been blown up as a result and forever changed.

And we're talking to them about deeply personal, intimate matters, oftentimes about their personal lives and how they either didn't see it coming or just how it's affected them. How about you in covering those interviews? Because for me, there are times I leave them kind of shaken.

Yeah, I agree with you. And sometimes people have said to me, too, that they felt a sense of catharsis afterwards. I mean, there's no greater compliment to me when I'm doing an interview with someone who has endured something so horrible than when they say afterwards, you made this so much easier than I thought it would have been. And it was so it's a relief to share my story.

And you made me feel so much better doing it. That's the greatest compliment, right?

I totally agree with you. Well, you've got a lot more coming up. We're just a little more than halfway through the series. You've got three more episodes to go. Anyone that really is intriguing to you or has captured your attention more than others?

Yeah, yeah. We've seen pictures of her in court. I remember when this story first broke. It was during the pandemic, actually. I remember following it and maybe doing a report or two on Good Morning America. But there's so much to this, as you said, still unfolding, so much to keep an eye on. And then, of course, I have to throw in that you're a lawyer as well.

So you look at these stories from a very different point of view oftentimes when you're sitting down, I'm sure.

Yeah, that makes such a difference. Well, you bring a different perspective, and it's always such a pleasure to talk with you. So thanks so much for joining us. And that's going to do it for us today. We thank you for joining us. Make sure to tune in to the rest of the Bad Romance series Tuesdays at 10 p.m. on ABC. And as always, tune in to 2020 Friday nights at 9 o'clock.

The 2020 After Show is produced by Cameron Shatavian and Sasha Oslanian, with thanks to Anne Reynolds, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen, the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. And Laura Mayer is the executive producer.

Yeah, I agree with you. And you and I can peel back and look at some of the ones that we've covered. But as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about a story that I covered in Minnesota where someone actually betrayed his wife. And this guy had never been in trouble, in fact, was quite religious. And they're supposed to be going to church that morning when she's killed.

What do you make of the motives? Because oftentimes these are folks who are trying to either cover their tracks or sometimes they're involved in duplicitous relationships. Talk to me a little bit about the motives.

Hi there, everybody. Welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Debra Roberts, and today we've got a special series to explore, 2020's limited series Bad Romance. It recently returned for its second season Tuesday nights on ABC through May 13th.

And they feel boxed in. Yeah, they feel boxed in. You make a great point. That's exactly right. That's what gets me. And you raise an interesting point when you talk about these double lives. I mean, those are the things of TV dramas, right?

One of the ones that, of course, I remember so well is we call it Love You to Death, is this case of Molly Watson, who was found murdered on a dark country road. She was getting ready to get married. Her new marriage license was in her car. Her boyfriend of seven years, so she'd been seeing somebody for seven years, and she's got her new license there in the back of the car.

And when police find her, they feel like they're going to go and drop this horrible news on this fiancé who's going to be just devastated. And they shockingly discovered his wife, his wife at home, that he's got a double life. I was the correspondent on this story, and I still think about it to this day for a lot of reasons. But let's listen to a clip.

I talked to Melanie Addy, who is the ex-wife of the perpetrator, James Addy, and it was the first time she had actually given an interview. Let's take a listen. The police tell you that your husband has a dead fiancé?

And he's engaged to the one? Yeah. And you're learning all of this in one night?

And you've been married for 20... 23 years.

Were you... Were you hurt?

Did you think that your husband was capable of murder?

I was, you know, the incredulity because, you know, you have to think that people are going to wonder if you've been married to somebody for 23 years, did you see any signs, you know? And I did go into that thinking, you know, come on, you had to have seen something. I was a little surprised at how matter of fact she was about it. She was clearly still very hurt by it.

Now, as you can probably guess from the title, these are stories of people who have lost their lives at the hands of those who they thought would love them forever. We're going to look at the consequences of obsession, manipulation and take a look at the dark side of love. And joining me to discuss this combustible mix of love and true crime is

But she absolutely stood by her story that she, you know, they had problems in their marriage and, you know, they weren't necessarily probably on the best of terms. You know, he went his way. She would go to bed early. You know, they didn't have a great marriage. But she never, ever would have imagined. And Ryan, remember, he worked at a prison.

And so, you know, this is somebody you would expect to at least think about, you know, right and wrong and so forth. So I just I wanted to sort of represent the viewer there with those questions and the shock of what she told me. First of all, my heart went out to her because her life just blew up as she knew it. But wow is right.

Yeah. And, you know, what was interesting too about this story is that, you know, clearly they had problems in their marriage because he would go out, you know, supposedly with his buddies. And on this particular night, he went out with his buddies. But he went to great lengths to, you know, cover his tracks.

He would say he was going off to some kind of a convention or some kind of a meeting out of town. Of course, he's with Molly. This relationship goes on. And this is the part, I think, that intrigues people so much is that probably James Addy was content to just continue this affair. But Molly, with no knowledge, of course, that this guy is living a double life, wants to get married.

And so he is going to honor that at a certain point. You know, she's pushing, she's pushing, she wants to get married, and he's got to figure it out. So he goes so far as to get the marriage license, and, you know, he's caught on videotape. You see the two of them on surveillance tape going to the office to go get the marriage license, and you know his mind is spinning. What am I going to do?

What am I going to do? And that's the kind of stuff I think that people find so intriguing. But Ryan, one of the things that I so enjoy about this kind of a conversation, us getting a chance to talk about these stories that we cover, is sharing with our viewers and our listeners the things that happen behind the scenes, right?

Whether we're struggling to work a story and get some video that maybe something goes wrong or, you know, those kinds of things. But in this particular instance... This was one I will never forget. We are interviewing Melanie Addy, and we have a hair and makeup team there to touch her up, to touch me up.

So we're sitting there doing this interview, and after we finish, when I go back behind the scenes to say something to them, they both, these two women, are standing there. Their face is almost ashen, and they said, we have something to tell you. We have to tell you something. And I said, what is that? We knew Molly. We were the hair and makeup team hired for her wedding. We knew this woman.

We knew something happened to her. We never knew what. And then they proceed to play the last audio clip they have of her on their cell phone, you know, talking about the wedding.

is abc news contributor and my friend ryan smith hi ryan deborah it's so good to talk to you good to talk to you i had to resist the urge to say and joining me as somebody who can talk about obsessive you know whatever in life because that's not quite the case but you are of course obsessed with 2020 and a lot of these stories you and i have worked on a lot of them together it's great to see you and i'm glad we can talk about this

I mean, it was stunning. We didn't get a chance to put that in our piece, but it was just like, what?

And they had no idea because they didn't know what had happened to her. They didn't know what story we were there covering. So as they're hearing all of this unfold, they're thinking, wait a second, this is familiar. So these unusual things happen to us sometimes behind the scenes. And that I have to say is probably one of the strangest ones for me.

That's mind blowing. So, you know, I just thought you'd get a kick out of hearing it. Well, listen, let's take a quick break because when we come back, there are more stories about double lives and crimes of passion from our Bad Romance series. This episode is sponsored by Get Contact.

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Welcome back to the 2020 After Show. I'm Deborah Roberts here with Ryan Smith, my pal and colleague here at 2020. And Ryan, one of the stories you presented we have called Betrayed, which aired last week. And it's the story of Angel Goyena, who was murdered in her home with her mom. While planning her wedding to David Hoshaw and investigators are struggling to find clues.

And then they get these letters, these bizarre letters sent to police by somebody claiming to have killed both of the women. Let's take a listen.

Yeah, me too. Well, you know, at the heart of these stories, and we see a lot of overlap in these stories, so clearly we had enough, sadly, I guess you could say, to put them all together and sort of look at them through a bigger lens in this series called Bad Romance. And one of the things to me that is so compelling is

Chilling stuff. David Hoshaw is ultimately revealed to be the killer. And similar to the last story we talked about, he's leading a double life. But these letters, these haunting letters taunting police, Ryan, what was that all about?

And instead, he's drawing them closer to him. Exactly. And that's what's interesting. I'm sure you see this and you feel this all the time when we're examining these stories. And you're thinking, how is it people think that they're going to get away with this? In this case, if he hadn't sent the letters, he might have actually gone for a long time getting away with it.

Now, nearly a decade later, Sherry Papini is the subject of a new documentary where she gives her account of what she says happened. So, joining me now to dig into this story and 2020's long reporting on it is senior producer Sean Dooley. Hello, Sean. Hi, Deb. Good to be here. Good to be with you. You've been with us, obviously, here at 2020 for so long.

Yeah, it didn't sit well with people. And what about just the other fallout? Because she's got children. I'm sure the community, their neighborhood. I mean, what was that like, the fallout for their family?

What's the status? So they divorced. They still have children together, Keith and Sherry. Have they found any way to get along? What is the latest between them as a family?

And we're learning, too, and we do learn in our 2020 episode about why she would do this kind of thing. I mean, what was going on for her?

Well, you just teed it up perfectly for me, Sean, because just ahead, a new chapter in this ever-changing story. Sherry is the subject of a new documentary. So the person at the center of the story is actually finally going to speak out.

You and I are always catching up in the hallway on all these different stories. But now we get a chance to talk face-to-face about this story that you senior produced along with Matt Gutman. Correct. Who reported on it. Correct, yeah. Sean, people, I just remember when this story happened. And I think I remember, of course, my jaw dropping at the whole prospect of it. But

I'm back now with Sean Dooley, our senior producer here at 2020, who worked alongside Matt Gutman on this story with Sherry Papini. Nobody had heard from her. We all wanted to know her story. Of course, police at that point, when we started working on this story for the second time. She strongly felt that her story wasn't true.

People have wanted to hear from her for a long time, and now they're going to hear from her in a documentary, Sean.

Discovery ID has a four hour doc coming out and it launches on Memorial Day and 2020 got a chance to talk to the filmmaker Nicole Rittenmeyer. And this had to have been really interesting to you to hear her story.

You own up to it.

And we should clarify that police believed that she willingly, you know, stayed with this guy and then at a certain point said she missed her children and wanted to leave.

You know, when you think about, you know, a story like that, right, that a mom has been abducted. And although we've seen a lot of stories where things have gone sideways, so I sort of wondered about it, but we were following it from the very beginning. And I don't know, I mean, were there doubts in the beginning?

Well, she finally speaks out to the filmmaker with this documentary. So let's listen to 2020's conversation with Nicole Rittenmeyer about what she said about interviewing Sherry Papini.

One of the things the film does is to have Sherry take a lie detector test.

And it'll be interesting to see now that she is going back on the story that she told, whether there could be some repercussions because of that. Now she's saying she signed a document and admitted to something that she says isn't true. So...

So that may be the end of it, but not the end of the fascination with this case. Well, that's it for the 2020 After Show. Sean, such a pleasure to have you here.

It's always fun, right? So for once, we took our hallway conversation to the actual microphone, and you all got a chance to hear how we report these stories. That's it for the 2020 After Show. Thanks so much for listening. Don't forget, on Friday nights, you can catch all new broadcast episodes of 2020 at 9 p.m. Eastern on ABC.

Our podcast is produced by Amira Williams and Sasha Oslanian with Brian Mazursky and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen, director of podcasting at ABC Audio, and Laura Mayer is the executive producer.

She's got young children at home.

And what did people say about this mom? I mean, she was, I guess, known to be a doting mother, right? They seem to have a solid marriage from what friends told us.

And her husband actually told us that, too. Well, let's play a clip from that 2016 show when Keith, her husband, describes reuniting with his wife Sherry at the hospital.

Hello, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts with 2020 The After Show. This was a story that horrified people all around the country. A young mom claiming that she had been abducted, held hostage and even branded during her captivity. Well, then her story fell apart.

His voice is just dripping with emotion. Sean, at the time, you couldn't talk to law enforcement, but we had heard the story from her. And, you know, he talks about how could people do this to people. And she had told a story that she had been abducted and that these two women had held her and she was sort of somewhat still kind of bound when she was found.

Well, the two women abducting her, that sounded a little strange. I remember thinking that.

Like the book, like the famous book. Exactly.

So they wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah. And so a year goes by and then another year goes by. And clearly people were sort of wondering what happened here. And then all of a sudden, Sherry Papini goes from victim to suspect. What specifically did, you know, when did you start to find out that, I mean, didn't add up, of course, the whole notion of maybe she was, you know, there was a cult or something.

That's what you think about when there's branding. What kinds of things didn't add up that police began to question? Yeah.

Oh, the plot thickens.

Well, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, Sherry's confession. But it's not the end of the story.

I'm back now with Sean Dooley, a senior producer here at 2020, and we're talking about the case of Sherry Papini, which Sean worked on along with correspondent Matt Gutman. Many times police have a suspicion. I've covered stories where they kind of didn't really believe the alleged victim. And then maybe within a year or so, this took six years to figure out that she wasn't truthful. Yeah.

Why so long?

And poor Keith, he really was standing by her. Well, we've got a clip from the 2020 that aired in 2024 where Keith talks with Matt Gutman about feeling that something wasn't quite right about his wife's story.

Such a confusing mix of emotions for this guy and the mom of his children. She presents as somebody who had been abused. Clearly now police are starting to think she did this to herself. That had to be really difficult for him.

Let's talk about the lie that she told. I mean, police at this point are starting to believe that there are lies here. Two Latino women. You know, we've all heard these stories before where a person of color was was fingered as the perpetrator. And it turns out somebody completely lied. This really was a very upsetting moment for those in the Latino community. Right.

Because she just completely made this up. And why would she mention two Latino women? Exactly.

And how does she come across to the jury? Because you think about she's the other woman, right? You would think that she would have little credibility with them because of what had happened.

But they were conflicted at first about how to sort of interpret her testimony.

But at the end of the day, they did believe her and her testimony was credible.

Right. Right. All right, we're going to take one more break. And after that, the team that pursued justice for Carrie Baker against all odds.

Thanks for having us. This is kind of wild. We're actually getting to talk in this formal way. So, Denise, let me start with you because you and I have worked on countless stories together and you have this knack for digging, digging, digging into the old files and finding things that maybe either we thought.

We are back with Samantha and Denise, who just really dug into the story and brought it to air for us at 2020, along with John Quinones. And let's talk about some of the interviews that you got for the show, because a lot of them centered around law enforcement. And I have covered a lot of stories, too, where we know that they're cops and we think of them as sort of tough cops.

But oftentimes, you know, these are people who are parents who are affected by what they're doing. So let's talk about Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon and investigator Abdin Rodriguez. I was struck by how much emotion Matt seemed to show at the end of our program. And maybe, Samantha, you can jump in on this.

Talk about what that perspective was like, you know, working on this case with him and seeing how it really affected him.

That changed everything.

Denise, what about Matt and Carrie's daughters? Because at the core of this case, they're children who have lost their mother and now lost their father, essentially, because he's away in prison. Talk to us a little bit about Carrie's daughters.

Yeah. Yeah. Something really, really heartbreaking. When you are covering these stories, Denise, and I think sometimes our viewers and in this case, our listeners are wondering how it affects you. I mean, your mom, we talked about this earlier. And these girls, I mean, what was that like for you as a mom and a producer to hear their story?

was sort of interesting at the time, or maybe not as much, and then you find something new. So what is it about this story? And of course, we've covered a lot of stories that involve hypocrisy and, you know, ministers in the church and all of that. But what was it about this one?

Yeah, yeah. And we take that with us too. So we're thinking about these stories long after they're done. Samantha, this was an interesting one for you. A lot of work, a lot of digging, carrying around this dummy. You've worked on a lot of stories here at 2020. Is this one that kind of will stick with you for a while?

Yeah, yeah. Well, at the end of the day, there are victims out there when we cover these stories and we can't forget about them. Samantha, Denise, this was a lot of fun. We'll have to do more of this. Yes, thank you, Deborah. Of course, thanks for doing this. Denise Martinez-Ramundo is a producer for 2020, and Samantha Wanderer is an associate producer.

Okay, that does it for us for 2020 The After Show. This time, we hope you're going to tune in on Friday nights at 9 for all new episodes of 2020, of course, on ABC. This episode was produced by Cameron Chertavian, Sasha Azlanian, and Joseph Diaz, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. We also had help this week from Amira Williams and Meg Fierro.

Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. And we should add that Josh Cohen is the director of podcasting at ABC Audio and Laura Mayer, executive producer.

And in small town Texas, too. So you're talking a southern town, a fairly youngish preacher with his family. And, you know, that just sort of shocked everybody. It shocked everybody in the community.

Now, Samantha, you were deeply involved in this story from the beginning, and you dug through all of the footage. And we're going to talk about that and how that made such a difference. But tell me about what drew you to this one.

Yeah. And when you approach this, you know, again, as I said to Denise, you know, you're talking small town America and you've got to kind of dig into that psyche, too, of just how how shocking this is to people when something like this is revealed.

This happened back in 2006. And, you know, when we go way back, it's sort of hard sometimes when we're trying to look into this, but archival footage played a big part of this. We're talking about this man who was convicted, his time in prison. Tell me all about that and going back in time.

So when Carrie died of what appeared to be suicide, the community rallied around the grief-stricken pastor. But Carrie's family didn't. They suspected that something was amiss. Calling themselves the Charlie's Angels of Waco, they launched their own investigation revealing something that was pretty shocking in this church community. Lies and adultery.

But at that time, of course, he's saying he had nothing to do with it and I have nothing to hide, right?

Tell us a little bit about him because we talked about in the piece how he was polite and soft-spoken. The community was sort of rallying behind him.

But when you're looking through, Samantha, all these tapes and you're seeing things sort of evolve over time, tell me a little bit about that. You've got to digitize this video. You're working with attorneys. People don't really know how much work goes in. They see what we put on the air. They don't know what's going on behind the scenes for us to be able to bring it.

Hi there, 2020 podcast listeners. Welcome to the 2020 After Show. I'm Deborah Roberts, and on Friday night, we brought you a show called Dirty Little Secret. Matt Baker was a charismatic minister in Hewitt, Texas, and he was leading a life at the center of his community along with his wife, Carrie Baker, who was a Sunday school teacher at the church. They had two little girls.

And this story was very largely dependent on all this video.

And that's what's interesting about this program because we get a chance now on this podcast to give people a taste of some things that we didn't put in our show, in our program. So here's some material from the archive from a 2007 interview with Matt Baker before his trial and before he was convicted, which didn't make it into our program. Take a listen.

And his voice, I mean, you know, of course, you guys got to see more of him, but to just even hear his voice, it just sounds so small town, southern guy, innocent. Denise, when you're combing through the archives, give people a sense of how we decide, like

What to present and how we're going to reveal his personality, you know, as Samantha was just saying, just there was all kinds of stuff that even she didn't even know we had and we uncovered like emails and things. Give us a sense of what that's all about.

And ultimately, of course, they helped law enforcement uncover Matt's plot to kill his wife. Here's a clip from the show.

Yeah. And we were talking about how, you know, obviously with our 47 year history, I mean, we have all kinds of tapes that sometimes we're able to find every now and again there's a problem. But we want to make it clear that, you know, you're capturing developments along the way and also both sides. Right.

Talk about Carrie's family, too, because they played a big part in this and they call themselves Charlie's Angels. What was that all about?

Which we see a lot. You and I have covered stories before where people have just stayed on it and stayed on it. And that's what actually brought cases to court. What did you make of the family and how have they managed to sort of hold up? And what was their demeanor like as they went through this whole process?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's always so fascinating when there's that turning point for people in these cases. All right. Well, we're going to take a break. And when we come back, what our 2020 team put together to challenge Matt's claims and just how improbable they really were.

Where is June Osborn? Rise up and fight for your freedom.

We are back. All right. So much of this program featured archival tape. But you guys also got new interviews to round out the picture of this case. And one moment that just stood out to me was a test we did with Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon, another Matt. And this was pretty creative, Denise. I mean, we do a lot of creative things here in the field. But tell us about this idea about the dummy.

We all hung on those words, too, on last week's 2020. On today's 2020 After Show, I get the pleasure to talk to 2020 producer Denise Martinez-Ramundo, who I normally talk to in the field, but today we get to talk a little more formally, and associate producer Samantha Wunderer.

And tell us what that was that they were trying to unfold.

Trying to save her life.

And that was really fascinating. So, Samantha, talk about that because you were in charge of this very heavy replica, this dummy, which was just under 200 pounds, right?

Calling that, right?

So he helped you lift this like it was nothing. And the whole goal was for John Quinones, our reporter, to sit there and observe and tell me what that was all about. So they're going to try to hurriedly see if they can beat the clock in terms of like dressing this dummy and showing us how prosecutors were able to reveal in the trial that it didn't seem plausible.

Yeah. And that was that was critical, Denise, too. I mean, and for us, talk to us a little bit about why we choose to do these things, because I think one of the things our listeners find intriguing is how we got to that point and why we thought that was important. So why did we think that would make such a difference in our story?

They both were a big part of telling this story, sifting through hours of archival interviews 2020 conducted over the years, really, with Matt Baker, and speaking to new voices to help John Quinones take a fresh look at this case. So welcome to both of you.

Yeah, I actually had a story like that when I was in the courtroom with a prosecutor who had a stopwatch and was showing me about, you know, how this person had fired a gun. And it is really compelling to see that and have them bring that to us again. Let's talk about one of the key witnesses in this case, Vanessa Bowles. She was critical.

So then he decides to help police and he helps solve this case as you said he actually goes undercover and tapes her and you know we learned that of course then she's convicted. Tell us where the case is now Matt because she's tried to appeal a couple times.

She'll spend the rest of her life in prison. What a story, Matt. You did such a great job covering this. So thanks so much for being with me today, Matt. Great seeing you or talking to you anyway. It was fun. Same here. Matt Gutman is the chief national correspondent for ABC News. Don't forget, of course, to tune in on Friday nights at 9 for all new episodes of 2020 on ABC.

The 2020 After Show is produced by Cameron Chertavian, Sasha Aslanian, with Joseph Reed, Tom Berman, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. We had technical help this week from Trevor Hastings and Kevin Ryder. Theme music by Evan Viola and Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen, the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. Laura Mayer is the executive producer.

Rapper Sean Diddy Combs was a kingmaker. He had wealth, fame, and power.

until it all came crashing down.

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And everybody is talking about this case and what happened. And, of course, police go undercover to try to figure out what happened. So before you and I get deeper into it, let's take a listen to some of the moments from your reporting, including some of the folks who are closest to him and everything in the aftermath of the winning ticket.

Folks who are in his orbit. I mean, Matt, this is just unbelievable when you think about all of this. As you said, you almost can't make this stuff up. And I know Lakeland, Florida, a little bit. I reported in Florida over the years and spent some time. Give us a sense of what somebody in that area would be dealing with. I mean, it's a small town. Everybody knows you. I mean, what was that like?

What were your impressions of the town and what Abraham was facing?

Joining me to talk about this is the fabulous Matt Gutman, our chief national correspondent here at ABC News, who reported Friday night's 2020 episode. Hi, Matt.

Hi there, everybody. Welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Deborah Roberts, and boy, we've got a great episode for you today because have you ever just thought, wow, wouldn't life be great if I won the lottery? You might think twice after hearing about our most recent 2020 story about Abraham Shakespeare, the Florida lottery winner who was tragically murdered for his winnings.

I'm good. Welcome. Welcome. Before we jump into this, I mean, first of all, so many people know you for just crisscrossing not just the country, but the world. I mean, from the wildfires in California, you're in the Middle East a lot reporting over there. Give us a sense of what it's like as you are. I mean, I thought I was busy. But man.

Yeah. And so many of us, of course, as reporters have reported on stories either kind of adjacent to this. When you talk about in the piece, the curse of the lottery, it's kind of that trope, that idea that, yeah, everybody would love to win millions of dollars, but it can just sort of ruin your life. And in this case, it was devastating. Within three years, all of a sudden, this guy is missing.

That he just decided to step away from it all.

And that was one of the twists and turns in this story, too, because for months he's gone and their text and D.D. is, of course, sort of setting these up. We're going to take a quick break. And, Matt, we're going to talk about your thrilling sit down interview with that convicted killer of Abraham Shakespeare. Stay with us. This episode is sponsored by the podcast Death County PA from Wondery.

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Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.

Welcome back to 2020 The After Show, where I'm talking with my colleague and friend, Matt Gutman. Matt, one of the most striking things about our program to me was that interview you did with Dee Dee Moore while she was behind bars in prison. I mean, she was professing her innocence. What was that like for you to sit there?

In her backyard, yeah.

Your producer, Tom Berman, said your eyes were about to pop out of your head. Well, hold on a second, Matt, because I want to play an extended clip from your interview with Dee Dee Moore. Let's take a listen.

And she sounds very articulate in her explanation.

Thank you so much for having me. And he started giving back, as many people say they would love to do if they got this kind of money. But after a while, friends started to notice that he just seemed to feel burdened. You know, everybody had their hands out wanting some of his money. And then three years after the lottery success happened. He mysteriously disappears.

Yeah.

Of course. Of course. Well, what's so sad about it when you think about it, too? This man had all this money, and at the end, she's manipulating him out of a million dollars, which is all he had left. Matt, hold on a second. We're going to take one more break. After that, the undercover tactics that lead law enforcement right to the body of Abraham Shakespeare. So stick around.

We are back with Matt Gutman talking about the episode of Abraham Shakespeare. Matt, this story was so bizarre. As you said, you almost can't make this up. And it was sort of cracked for law enforcement when Greg Smith, whom you mentioned earlier, who was an acquaintance of Abraham Shakespeare, and he actually went undercover with police to try to help solve this case.

And they had to actually identify their sister's body after the murder because the mom lived in Georgia at the time. And they had to go and deal with this. And it was just awful. In fact, they didn't want to do an interview with me. They didn't want to. It's been so difficult. And that's one of the things I'm proud of at 2020. When we do these stories, it's not just about the crime.

It's about the human element, the families, how they were impacted. And you reached out to these guys and they still carry this pain, right?

Absolutely. Well, As I said, it can take a toll on these families. And one of the things we like to do on this podcast is we like to give you information and little clips that you didn't hear, we didn't share in the show. So let's hear a clip of our interview with Joan, something that didn't make it into our 2020 program, but it really stuck with us.

Such a vulnerable moment. And clearly she had this realization and made some adjustments in her life, right?

Yeah. And her husband, Jonna's father, wears a picture of her on his shirts. I mean, every day. Every day. And he said he's done that since the very beginning.

Yeah, yeah, it's a story. I mean, I have a friend who I had met when I was in Knoxville years ago who I caught up with for coffee, and she knows this story. I mean, people in that community. Blue, you do so many of these stories, and you and I together have done a lot of them, but some kind of stick with you and haunt you a little bit. How about this one for you?

there was an answer there was an answer but it took a very long time and blue you know this is almost like the two of us when we drive along when you and i are off covering these stories and we're in the car and you and i get to talk about not only the background but what your thoughts were my thought so we're kind of like in the car all over again the two of us and i remember you got us on the one of the apps and got us turned right back around we we

And think about the human element of who they might have affected. Well, Blue, you do such a great job on these stories. And before we go, I'm just sort of curious, what motivates you? Because you find a lot of these stories. You pitch this particular one. I mean, what are you looking for when you're digging around for these stories?

Yeah. Yeah. But when you talk about that part of it, it's more than just the crime. It's about what happens as a result. The human spirit. The human spirit. And you are so good at doing that, Blue. Maybe it's because you're a southerner, just like I am.

yes maybe that makes us uniquely qualified to be able to go in and help people sort of process a lot of this well blue it was such an important story about what a mom's love can do and you do such a great job thank you for covering this and the human heart that you put behind your coverage of this this case it just i know it means a lot to the family as well it's always a pleasure to work with you blue browning is a producer with 2020 so it's always great blue thanks so much for swinging by

Well, remember to tune in Friday nights at 9 Eastern for all new episodes of 2020. And you can still catch A Bad Romance on Tuesday nights at 9 for a few more weeks. The 2020 After Show is produced by Amira Williams and Sasha Aslanian with Joseph Rhee, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020.

Josh Cohen is the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. Laura Mayer is the executive producer.

turned off the wrong road. And I just found ways and we found our way back on. But when I came to you to meet up with you at Joan's home in Tennessee, as I said, I had worked in Knoxville before. And so I felt a connection in a way to the community. And even though I didn't know her story, to her. And I remember stepping into her doorway and meeting her and her husband. And

It was just really striking to me to get to know her. Just this lovely woman who, you know, was carrying her heartache still in her hand, but also her daughter's presence throughout the house. I mean, mementos everywhere, even though it had been 20 years. So let's take a listen from the show and we'll talk more about that. I see memories of Jonna everywhere in the house, right? Yes.

They rest here.

Jonna's room.

That's beautiful. This is the dress. The wedding gown. All the beading.

That was such a touching moment to me. And I have to tell you, Blue, when you had described Joan and you said she had all these mementos in the house and she had Jonah's room, I thought it was kind of almost just her tribute. She can't forget her only daughter, you know?

Hi there, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts, and welcome to 2020 The After Show. Today, we're going to talk a little bit more about the mom who became a warrior to find her daughter's killer. I reported on this story on Friday night's edition of 2020. Joan Berry, whose daughter, Jonna, was stabbed to death when she was a 21-year-old student at UT, the University of Tennessee.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. She did her daughter's nails before she was in the coffin because she did that kind of thing. But it was like a last little moment that she could give something to her daughter, a last little, you know, sort of gift, I guess, in a way to daughter to clean her hands and to do her. Oh, my God. It broke my heart.

And this woman, on the one hand, yes, she's heartbroken, but she's so strong, too. And, you know, one of the things, Blue, that people don't necessarily always understand is when we're doing these stories, and this one goes back 20 years. This is before cell phones were just ubiquitous and everybody's taking pictures and you can find them on their social media.

That didn't happen with Jonna because that didn't exist at the time. So you really had to dig to try to find not only the photos, but just, you know, anything that would help bring her to life for us, but also respecting her mom's heartbreak while you're doing it. How do you do that?

Yeah, yeah. And something maybe painful, but also maybe comforting to her as well. You've done a lot of this digging and everything, and that's the only way we can paint a picture.

Well, also what was touching, too, is that even though this happened a long time ago, Joan is still a crusader. And DNA was a big part of this story because when – The police were investigating. They had unknown DNA. So we're going to take a quick break.

And when we come back, we're going to talk about how Joan helped change laws surrounding one of our most powerful crime-solving tools, which is DNA. This episode is sponsored by Get Contact. Do you remember back in the days of cell phones when the only people who had your number were friends and loved ones who were actually trying to get in touch with you?

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There was no suspect and no arrest for years. And Joan just became consumed by this whole thought of who could do something like this so vicious to her daughter and what laws needed to change to make it a little easier to solve these kinds of crimes. So today we're going to dig into it. And joining me is my colleague, my friend, Blue Browning. Hey, Blue. Hello.

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Blue, we got into the advocacy that Joan Berry has done around DNA after being so frustrated with the slow progress in the investigation of her daughter, Jonna's murder. And of course, in the show, we touched on that. But I mean, she has done so much and continues even still to and people know her. They know her name because she got involved in state government.

I mean, she really has become a crusader.

Well, she was so surprised because one of the things she discovered, and if you saw Friday's show, you saw this, that she, you know, at that time in Tennessee and a number of other states, when somebody is arrested, they didn't necessarily collect the DNA, only if they were convicted.

And so she got that changed so that that way they would have this pool to be able to draw from, because that's why it took so long to find her killer, Jonas' killer.

Yeah. And maybe she didn't necessarily lead to those changes, but things started to roll and her influence in Tennessee and the knowledge of it probably did have ultimately some impact someplace.

She's a warrior. She really is. And I mean, this is a woman who was sort of in the hairdressing field and the beauty field and all of that. This wasn't her natural inclination, but because of her daughter's death. And we've seen that so many times in these stories. A parent or a relative has to step up and become an advocate.

Well, I drove with Joan to go visit the TBI, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, to see the DNA lab. And it's named for Jonna. And here's what's interesting. Jennifer Millsaps, who runs that lab, was there at that time 20 years later. You informed me of that in the car when we were driving and why that was so significant.

Oh, good to be with you. And you really are a partner in crime when we come to these stories because you and I have worked on a lot together. This story was actually somewhere you lived. Yeah, yeah, exactly. University of Tennessee. I didn't go to school there, but I worked in Knoxville and I was so familiar with that area.

Yeah. Yeah. They really have seen a lot of change. And Jennifer was so interesting because she was very matter of fact, you know, she's a lab kind of person. But she said that she was really shaken. I mean, she remembered feeling that she wanted to help solve this murder of this young girl. Everybody in the community was talking about this. And so it really impacted her.

What about law enforcement? Because you began making calls on this story. You're digging into what was happening at the time. Of course, you got these detectives to talk to us. But what did you hear from them about the case?

Oh, my God.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember when she talked to me about that and she said she was so shaken up by the whole thing, even though, you know, she had to be strong on the job, but she was pretty new to the job.

And she went home and she had her child and she went to go spend the night with her mom because she was just so shaken up because this community and a lot of times when we do these stories, oftentimes they're in smaller communities and they don't see these kinds of crimes. So you and I talk to people who haven't encountered these kinds of things before. Exactly.

Well, we know that when they are working on these cases, whether they're advocates or, you know, law enforcement, it can take a toll. So we're going to talk more about that, what we learned when we come back. This episode is sponsored by the podcast Death County PA from Wondery. When Lamont Jones learns that his young cousin died in custody just weeks after entering prison, his world shatters.

The official report said natural causes. But how do bruises and missing teeth fit that explanation? Grief turns to frustration as Lamont faces an impossible choice. Accept the story being told or risk everything to uncover the truth about what happened. From Wondery comes Death County, PA. A chilling true story of corruption, cover-ups, and one man's pursuit of justice.

But how did you wind up thinking about this story and thinking it would work for 2020?

Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many in Dauphin County Prison. And powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never-before-heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County PA pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. You can follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

You can listen to all episodes of Death County PA early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. This is the next phase in my therapeutic work.

Breathe out.

This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in. Breathe out. She is manipulating us. Breathe in. Breathe out. Why are you resisting? Is it too late to get a refund?

We are back. Blue and I are talking about the case of Jonna Berry, the 21-year-old student who was murdered all these years ago. And her mom has become an advocate. But, Blue, one of the things we also discovered, and I certainly talked to her mom about, is that she had two sons. Also, in addition to Jonna, Jonna had two brothers.

And he was abusive.

They had a little child together, a four-year-old, but he had teen children from a previous marriage. And the idea, I mean, this is the thing that gets me about this story. I mean, we hear, you and I cover so many of these stories where there are couples that are at odds and certainly, you know, very viciously at odds, but to involve teen children. So he takes his son that night with him.

Tell us about that.

And could they tell that the kids weren't being truthful?

The boots, the shoe prints?

And that connected him because he had those boots. So the boy starts to crack, but he's trying to protect—that's his stepmother. Lauren is his stepmother. Right. And Paul is his father. This poor kid. Yeah. That's a lot for a 15-year-old.

What follows is a dogged investigation by a pair of local police officers, telltale boot prints in the snow, an ice fisher who actually finds evidence, The search leads to Paul DeWise, Lauren's estranged husband. If you follow our shows, you know that wouldn't be a big surprise. But how it all happens is and his 15 year old son, Joe, his son from his first marriage.

So he's threatened and he feels he has no choice.

He is a 15-year-old, so they didn't face charges.

And testified against his father.

John, Lauren was killed by her estranged husband, of course. The whole notion that she was living this life of abuse, do people know this?

Which happens so often.

Yeah, we've seen that. You and I have seen that in stories we've covered. Did you get a sense of... What she endured in the marriage.

Well, she clearly had fled and was trying to find safety. You asked Ashley actually about this. Let's listen to a clip.

So here's a clip from the show from Joe's interrogation.

Such important advice.

We talk about the four-year-old right now being raised by relatives.

What kind of an impact, John, you and I both when we go to these communities sometimes can really kind of get the feel, especially after you've talked to so many different people in a community. You get a feel for what a crime like this has done to a community. This was one that was known to be, I guess, peaceful and beautiful. And then they're shattered with this kind of horrific situation.

What kind of impact did this have on that community and even all these years later?

things can happen, but also too that powerful lesson about domestic abuse and that people actually can take away from that.

We talk about the National Domestic Violence Hotline, 1-800-799-SAFE, so people can actually call because there is something that you can take away from the story too, aside from the innocence that was shattered, but an awakening too about domestic violence and how tragically it can actually affect us all.

Well, John, you know, you and I cover so many of these stories and oftentimes we go to, you know, corners of the country, corners of the world, sometimes in your case. Did you take away, sometimes I take away a feeling from a story after I've done something.

I take away a feeling from the people or I did a story once in Florida and these two women police officers were just such tough, amazing women. And I sort of went away thinking about how they were so devoted and dedicated to Did you take a feeling away from this particular one?

The human spirit. Yeah. I love it. Triumphs. Well, John Quinones, how great to have you on our inaugural behind-the-scenes broadcast.

I love it. This is it. This is it. Well, you know, you and I have been at this a long time, and it's great to finally sit down and get a chance to chat.

We definitely will. Thank you so much for coming in and doing this. Well, that's our program for today. John, I can't thank you enough for being here. The 2020 After Show will be back in your feed next Monday with more analysis and behind-the-scenes stories from 2020. BTS, as they say these days, behind the scenes.

Now, this poor kid is a teenager. John, there are so many elements to this story. I just, what was it about this one initially that you really felt so compelled to jump into?

Tune in on Friday nights, of course, at 9 o'clock for all new episodes of 2020 on ABC. And I should also point out that our show is produced by Sasha Aslanian and Cameron Chertavian. Special thanks to Joe Diaz and Brian Mazurski of 2020. Laura Mayer is the executive producer of ABC Audio.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.

Well, that's what I wanted to ask you because it was a long time in the making. How did that change the reporting, though? Because when you wait five years, other things happen. People change their minds. Stories sort of change, maybe.

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes people close up. Sometimes people are ready to talk right away. But the idea, this woman survives this tragic shooting, loses her friend. And why do you think finally, I mean, obviously she had healed a little bit from her wounds, I guess, but psychologically, I mean, why did she feel ready to process and talk about it on camera?

Every Monday, the 2020 After Show will take you behind the scenes of our most recent program, and we will also play exclusive audio that you won't hear on Friday's show. As you know, we've been bringing hard-hitting investigative reporting for nearly five decades. I wasn't here all five decades, let me tell you. I've only been here for a couple of them.

Gosh, just so heartbreaking.

Yeah. How is she doing after all of that?

Well, if you're in Montana, of course, you probably do love the outdoors. It always strikes me when you interview and when we all go out there and we talk to these people who have gone through such an ordeal. Does she talk a lot about Lauren and just having had that loss?

Hey there, 2020 listeners. It's Deborah Roberts here, and I want to welcome you to our very first 2020 After Show. There are so many things that happen behind the scenes when we're out reporting. Surprising twists, incredible moments that we, our producers, and our correspondents experience. So we decided to share the best stories with you.

And this is the small town where nobody thinks anything happens there, you know, just doesn't happen in our community. And of course, it did happen there. Well, we're going to take a break. But after the break, we're going to hear about the surprising place that the murder weapon turned up and something, John, you did out in the field. You shared with me a little bit later. OK, so stay tuned.

We'll be right back.

This whole team and I are so excited to bring this show to you, pulling back the curtain, if you will, on the program that you all know and love. And so for our first episode, I have the pleasure of welcoming my friend and colleague, ABC News correspondent, John Kenyonis.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.

OK, John, we're back now. And I want to talk about not only just this crime and how it happened, but, you know, one of the things that's always intriguing is how police crack these cases. That's why our viewers and our listeners actually find these cases so interesting, how they found it. Now, the murder weapon in this case, these women had been shot.

They didn't find it right away, but they eventually you met the folks who found the murder weapon. And it was an intriguing way. Tell us a little bit about that in this cold part of the country.

Andrea Larson.

Did your producer, Joe Diaz, have to convince you to go out there?

Why would she think nothing of it to find a gun on the lake?

People hunt. You're right. You're right.

That's a classic John Quinones line. And that turned out to be the murder weapon.

It's good to be with you. Good to have you. We call you Q around here, so I hope you don't mind, John.

John, what about just going out there? Because I think what listeners might find interesting is, you know, many times we go out there on either the lake or, in my case, sometimes in wooded areas in some kind of a swamp or whatever with the police to find out. You had never been ice fishing before.

You're out there with her, having her tell the story. Give us a little bit of a sense behind the scenes when you're doing that interview with her. Are you nervous about falling through while you're doing it, or were you perfectly comfortable, and did you just do the interview without thinking about it?

Did you catch anything? No. No, of course not.

But, you know, I'm always struck by the fact that people are willing to take us out into their lives and to do these kinds of things. And you specifically probably wanted to be out there on the ice with her because that's – That factored into the story.

It's a delight. And to see you on the program regularly. Now, John, your show, You Left Me for Dead, I'm going to give a little recap here because it's really interesting and lots of little twists. And a warning to all of you, there may be spoilers if you haven't heard the show. And you can find the episode, of course, right next to this one in your feed.

I am always struck by the police officers in these stories, and they are just the unsung heroes many times, particularly in small towns where maybe they don't necessarily always have the experience of investigating big murders. Maybe they don't happen there.

And so in this particular case, a big part of the story was that dogged detective work that was done by Jeremy Kopp of the Gallatin County Sheriff's Office, you mentioned, and Dustin Lensing of the Belgrade Police Department. What about the two of them in trying to put this together? And I'm guessing this is probably maybe the biggest case they had had to try to solve.

Yeah. And they know to go to family right away to look at the family members. And certainly when they learn that somebody has been in the throes of a divorce, as Lauren had. So obviously they kind of knew where to swoop in. This case you talk about in the piece had a big impact on these two officers. And it happens all the time.

I've noticed that, too, when I've been out interviewing small town cops. Here's an extended clip from the interview with Jeremy Kopp and Dustin Langsing that gets at that. Let's take a listen.

Yeah, something like this. You know, just hearing those guys, and I've heard it so often when I've interviewed officers, you know, we think that they just go out and they just do their job and we see them, these visions of them, you know, in our pieces. But these are real people, and particularly in communities like this, and they take this stuff to heart.

You Left Me for Dead is a story of absolute horror and homicide in a small town near Bozeman, Montana. Two women are at home, and this is a nightmare for any of us thinking about being at home on a quiet night, when an intruder breaks in and shoots them. Lauren DeWise dies, and Ashley Van Hamer miraculously survives.

And I've had officers tear up when talking about this, and you can hear the emotion in their voices. They did in this story, too.

Before we even get to that, because I want to... You've touched on so much. John, you're the classic reporter. You get it all in there. But I want to talk about Paul DeWise first, because... I mean, not only did he kill his wife and try to kill Ashley, he shot her, but he involved his teen children. It's unfathomable.

Well, this is what's so wonderful about doing this program because we all get to talk about the little nuances and the things that happen in the courtroom and what you found along the way that sometimes we don't always necessarily get those into our program. So this is what's great about today. So let's talk about the genesis of this story.

Let's talk about your reaction, Pat, in the courtroom, because one of the things that just grabs me in a lot of our reporting is when these cases are revealed and there are kids involved. And so Monica's then 16-year-old daughter, Isabella, is the one who found her father brutally, brutally stabbed to death outside their house near the pool. And she testified in the trial.

And talk to us about the family and watching that and seeing the daughter's testimony, and particularly for you as, you know, not just as a journalist, but as a person.

You pitched it actually to us and you said that this was like one of the most fascinating, captivating, and I guess disturbing stories that you had covered. Tell me how so.

And that had such an impact in the courtroom, too, when you think about that. But yet, Isabella still, you know, defends her mom. I mean, she wants to actually see her mom.

And also for their future, too. I mean, going forward. I mean, how can you process all of that? But that's what really got me in this case, too, that they still they don't really believe that she could have as much as they probably know that their mom could be callous and all of that. They don't want to believe that she could do something that heinous. No.

Pat, you have, as we said earlier, you've covered so many of these cases. And oftentimes when I'm out there in the field and I'm reporting on these things and getting all the details, you do think that you just couldn't make this up. No, you can't. Yeah, this one I think you said it's up there for you in terms of what you found so fascinating about it, the human condition, very Shakespearean.

You know, this is one you're not going to forget for a long time.

Right. We talk about the timeline and everything kind of falling into place for this murder, if Monica indeed did it. But do you think she wanted her daughter? She set it up for her daughter to find her father's body? Or do you think that was just collateral damage here?

One of the things that was so incredible is that there are two murder suspects here, and one testified for the prosecution, one testifies for the defense. Talk about that accomplice to Robert Baker.

Yeah, and he got a lighter sentence, though. Pat, this has been so fascinating, and you and I could talk all day about this, but I can't thank you enough for bringing such intrigue and such understanding to these stories, at least to the extent that we can understand them. Always a pleasure to talk with you, Pat.

Pat LaLama is an ABC News consultant who covered the Cimentelli trial for us in Los Angeles. That does it for 2020, The After Show. And we hope you'll tune in on Friday nights at 9 for all new episodes of 2020 on ABC. This episode was produced by Cameron Chertavian and Sasha Aslanian, along with Joe Rhee, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020.

And we also had help this week from Amira Williams, Meg Vieira, and Larry DeCantt. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen is the director of podcasting and ABC Audio. Laura Mayer is the executive producer.

Wow. And it is also adjacent to fame, too, because he styled hair for some of the more famous people in Hollywood.

That classic story.

Well, let's let's go back to that security camera footage we talked about and how police zeroed in. There were two admitted killers in this case and testifying for both sides of the case. One prosecution, one defense.

Hi there, 2020 podcast listeners. Welcome to the 2020 After Show. I'm Debra Roberts. On Friday night's 2020, we told you about the dramatic case in Los Angeles where Monica Cimentelli has been on trial for the murder of her husband, Fabio Cimentelli. He was an internationally known hairstylist and hair care executive. He was found stabbed to death next to his pool eight years ago.

Wow. It's beyond interesting. And these are the kinds of things that we actually see play out all the time in these cases that we cover on 2020. Pat, hold that thought for a second. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about what police caught on tape about Monica. This episode is sponsored by Get Contact.

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This episode is sponsored by the podcast Death County PA from Wondery. When Lamont Jones learns that his young cousin died in custody just weeks after entering prison, his world shatters. The official report said natural causes, but how do bruises and missing teeth fit that explanation?

Grief turns to frustration as Lamont faces an impossible choice, accept the story being told or risk everything to uncover the truth about what happened. From Wondery comes Death County, PA, a chilling true story of corruption, cover-ups, and one man's pursuit of justice. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many in Dauphin County Prison, and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried.

With never-before-heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County PA pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. You can follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to all episodes of Death County PA early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Hi there, we're back.

And interestingly, two men were caught on security cameras entering his property. And although his wife Monica has denied any involvement in the murder, prosecutors and investigators don't buy it. Their big question has always been, what role, if any, did his wife Monica play in her husband's death?

Some of the most fascinating audio presented at this trial came from conversations that police recorded between Monica Cimentelli and her lover, Robert Baker. You brought us, Pat, one of those, and you can set up this clip for us because the fascinating thing is you've got two different people here, two different stories. Tell us what you brought to us.

But clever police work.

Calling each other and the phone calls got a little steamy too, right?

Let's take a listen.

And we recently received news that the jury has convicted Monica Cimentilli of the murder of her husband Fabio. On today's 2020 After Show, we're going to talk with ABC News consultant and fabulous crime journalist Pat LaLama, who sat in that courtroom every day of the trial and has been on this story since the murder took place in 2017 and has such great insight into it. Hi there, Pat.

You know, they're talking about their love for each other and their lust for each other. And I'm sure viewers were probably struck by this, too, when this aired. But there's no sense of we're in trouble. What do we do? Oh, my gosh. How do we get here? None of that.

Well, that's what I wanted to get at because you've been covering these cases for decades. You know, you have been at it a long time, as have I. And the technology has changed a lot over the years. And when you talk about sometimes things that are circumstantial, and that happens a lot with the cases we cover on 2020.

But that has changed a lot and made the police work a little bit more fruitful, hasn't it?

That's what's so interesting, the timeline, you know, and they're able to do that with all of this technology. Yeah, kind of walk us through that a little bit.

It's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.

Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.

And you mentioned the Slayer lawsuit, and that is basically a Slayer petition means you can't profit from or you can't collect money after somebody has died.

I want to talk about that. But we're going to take a break first, though. And when we come back, we're going to unpack this tangled web of family, personal history and drama at the heart of the story.

We're back with the 2020 After Show, and Jonathan, the producer of the piece that we worked on together, is here. This story isn't just about a murder investigation. It's about a very, not just fractured, I guess, dysfunctional family. There are a lot of dynamics at work here. I thought that was so intriguing. You and I started off by looking at the family tree.

John Chocolos, this patriarch, this wealthy patriarch of this family who had been murdered, had four daughters- One of them was Nathan's mom. That was just really interesting to find out how the money and how it affected the family and how there were fights within the family. And Nathan's mom, Linda, butted heads with her father a lot over life and the way she was raising her son.

And that she wanted to try to repair the relationship.

Yeah, a very tight-knit, we were told by them, a tight-knit Greek family too. One of the family members we actually got to meet was Charlene Gallagher, who was a younger sister to Linda. Let's hear an extended clip of that interview.

You can hear the pain in her voice. We should say that Nathan was awaiting trial when he wound up taking his own life. The clip kind of really brings home, I think, how devastating these events were for this family. I mean, to have three family members.

Chuck LaPena, who you interviewed, Deborah, is cousin of Nathan.

Wow, that's how that came about.

And you certainly didn't want to presume to ask him to go to the cemetery.

Well, they never found her body, but he wanted at least a stone to represent her.

And that's what made the story so intriguing for us. My guest today is 2020 producer Jonathan Balthasar. Jonathan, I've been saying your name wrong.

Sometimes in these stories, we do find moments that we aren't expecting. And that's, I think, to me, on a human level, that's what makes the work that we do so interesting.