[#15] Juliet Schor: The Evidence for the 4-Day Workweek

Economist and sociologist Dr. Juliet Schor has spent decades studying working time, overwork, consumer culture, and now the global movement toward shorter workweeks. In this conversation, we unpack what the data actually shows about four-day weeks: productivity, well-being, turnover, carbon emissions, and the business case for working less.Juliet shares stories from companies and public organizations around the world—from advertising agencies and restaurants to nurses, startups, and local governments, showing how shorter hours can reduce burnout, improve quality, and save money even when output doesn’t “go up.” She also explains why shorter hours act as a forcing function for innovation, how they enable lower-carbon lifestyles, and why we’ve been stuck at a five-day week for 85 years.We connect the research to our nine-year experiment with a 5-hour workday, and explore what might be possible with a future 4-day, reduced-hour workweek.Why listenLearn what the research actually says about four-day workweeks—beyond hype, headlines, and opinions.Hear how companies in high-stress sectors like healthcare, restaurants, and advertising are using shorter hours to cut burnout, improve quality, and reduce turnover.Understand the difference between 100-80-100 and 100-80-80 models—and why not every success story is about “doing more with less.”See how shorter workweeks can reduce carbon emissions and enable more sustainable lifestyles through behavior change, not just fewer commutes.Discover why shorter hours act as a forcing mechanism that breaks Parkinson’s Law and drives better processes, documentation, and focus.Get ideas for how employees, managers, and leaders can start the conversation about work-time reduction inside their own organizations.Highlights & timestamps 00:17 – Welcome to Five Hour FormulaAlex frames the five-hour workday experiment and introduces Juliet as a leading researcher on shorter workweeks.00:33 – Who is Dr. Juliet Schor?Juliet’s background as an economist/sociologist, The Overworked American, and her latest book Four Days a Week.02:21 – Origin storyGrowing up in coal country, her father’s work with mine workers, and how she became interested in working time.03:28 – From surveys to global trialsEarly surveys showing huge appetite for a four-day week, the long “quiet period,” and how Joe O’Connor and Four Day Week Global pulled her into large-scale trials during and after the pandemic.05:08 – Why shorter hours once seemed like a luxuryInequality, wage stagnation, and economic distress pushed shorter workweeks off the agenda—until COVID forced a rethink of how and why we work.08:07 – Shorter workweeks, climate & carbonWhat the data actually shows on emissions: modest commuting gains, income as a big driver of carbon, and why countries that choose more free time over more output see larger climate benefits.11:01 – Time, money & behavior changeShorter hours as an “enabling condition” for more sustainable lifestyles and more intentional choices—echoed by Alex’s experience with the 5-hour day.12:30 – 5-hour days vs 4-day weeksComparing Alex’s 25-hour workweek with the 32-hour model in the trials, and how both create space for better lives and lower-carbon habits.15:10 – 100-80-100 vs 100-80-80Why some organizations maintain output (100-80-100) while others accept less output (100-80-80) but win through lower turnover, better outcomes, and reduced hiring costs—especially in healthcare, restaurants, and nonprofits.17:05 – Case studies across sectorsNurses with better patient outcomes, chefs who finally stay, and an ad agency slashing 30–40% turnover while clients love the stability.22:10 – A UK council saves ~£750kHow South Cambridgeshire Council used a four-day week to attract talent, reduce temp staff and bonuses, still save money, and weather political backlash.25:29 – Speed-up or working smarter?Research showing real work reorganization and self-reported gains in competence and productivity—with little evidence of simple speed-up.26:05 – What actually changes inside companiesIn white-collar firms: fewer/better meetings and more focus time.In breweries, restaurants, and factories: staffing changes, time-and-motion improvements, and burnout reduction.28:32 – Turnover, meetings, and hidden inefficienciesWhy even already-efficient teams gain massively from better retention, while many companies still have huge upside in cutting meeting overload and distraction.30:00 – A startup “saved” by the four-day weekA satellite internet startup handles a huge new contract without burning out the team—thanks to the four-day week, better documentation, and long-delayed process improvements.33:38 – The four-day week as a forcing functionShorter hours act as a constraint that forces innovation, better processes, documentation, and smarter use of tech and AI.34:13 – Parkinson’s Law & 85 years at 40 hoursHow being stuck at a five-day, 40-hour template has baked inefficiency into white-collar work: when you can’t go home, work expands to fill the time.35:19 – Why Fridays are differentResearch and lived experience show Fridays are already lower-intensity, making them the logical first day to reclaim.37:44 – Can employees move the needle?Examples of internal champions and unions successfully pushing for four-day weeks at places like Kickstarter, climate organizations, and early NGOs.41:06 – “Burning people out won’t help your cause”How the pandemic shifted the narrative from “luxury” to “necessity” in mission-driven and high-stress work.42:10 – Juliet’s personal schedule & FridaysHer evolution from long, inefficient academic hours to more efficient work after kids and, now, treating Fridays as her own day for exercise, lunches, reading, and only the work she chooses.45:26 – What the research means for the 5-hour workdayJuliet affirms Alex’s nine-year experiment as a standout example: large time reduction, long-term sustainability, and strong outcomes.47:50 – What’s next: 4 days × ~6 hours?Alex shares a vision for four 6-hour days; Juliet explains why that’s increasingly viable with AI and why an extra full day off is often described as life-changing.48:52 – “No amount of money would get me to go back”Survey data showing that many four-day week participants would not return to a five-day schedule for any pay increase. Resources & LinksJuliet Schor’s TedTalk: The Case for the 4 Day WorkweekJuliet’s

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