In this conversation, Teresa Torres and Petra Wille unpack a pattern they’re seeing again and again in product transformations: teams get trained in continuous discovery, but nothing sticks because leaders haven’t changed how they work. They dig into why “train your leaders first” isn’t just a catchy mantra — it’s a prerequisite for shifting from projects to true product thinking. They share concrete examples from interview training gone sideways, the hidden organizational dynamics that stall discovery habits, the role product leadership actually plays (and why most orgs underestimate it), and the empathy we all need for leaders who are learning this way of working for the first time. If your teams are struggling to adopt discovery, or if your transformation feels stuck, this episode will give you a clearer picture of where the real blockers live — and what leaders can do differently to unlock meaningful change.

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“What did the council decide on item 42?” — answered with the speaker and the moment.

Transcript

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