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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Welcome to American Power. I am your host, Nat Towson, comedian, speechwriter, and most reflective in my father's eyes when he looks at me with joy, podcast host. With me, as always, is my panel of experts. I wing those, I want you to know. This is my panel of experts, our expert on the military and foreign policy, Chad Scott. Chad, how's it going, man?
It's going well, Nat. If I was your father, I'd be very proud of your podcasting endeavors.
You know what? He actually is. I shouldn't make that joke, but thank you. You're my new dad. And also on the panel, nevertheless, you have replaced my father. And on the other father on the panel, my other father, my third father, you know him as Mr. Global. He's our expert on all things energy, oil, renewable, global energy markets. Matt Randolph. Matt, how's it going?
It's going great. I just got a text from Maury, and I am, in fact, not your father. So good news all around.
They're doing spiritual paternity tests now. It turns out that you're not even philosophically his father. He doesn't see you ideologically as a patrilineal connection. I look up to both of you. Are we the same age? I'm not certain. And on this episode, we're also joined by a very special guest.
They are a campaign manager for Spring Street Climate Fund, a longtime climate organizer and strategist. And prior to their work with Spring Street, they were the coordinator of the Energy Democracy Alliance and managed a statewide coalition to organize for a renewable and equitable energy system and also played...
a leading role in one of my favorites, this campaign to pass the Build Public Renewables Act right here in New York, the biggest green New Deal bill in America, which became law in 2023. Please welcome to the podcast, Patrick Robbins.
Well, thank you so much, Nat. I am doing great. It's great to be on. Thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to this.
Thank you. I'm so happy to have you here. And I'll say for our listeners, I've known Patrick for many years. We actually went to high school together and we found each other again through the climate movement. And I found that Patrick had been doing some really incredible work and was really happy to see what you've been doing. But I was hoping I don't have the full story.
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Chapter 2: How does Patrick Robbins advocate for energy affordability?
Right. And then that's before you get into it. Yeah, exactly. And that's before you get into all these other costs, like, for example, ConEd's property tax, which is also directly passed on to the ratepayer and makes up an enormous portion of our bills.
So there's all sorts of ways in which the utility is able to pass their costs down to the ratepayer above and beyond what is strictly necessary for providing electricity.
So I have one more question. And also, Matt, if you want to jump in at any point, if you have questions, feel free. But I was going to ask, is there any sense... These are privately owned utilities, as I understand. And I know that the point in New York, we do have a publicly owned utility, but it's not used to power most of the state. Is this a...
In terms of rates, is this a private utility problem? Is generation going to be just as expensive if we were to make it public? We talked about Claire Valdez's national public utility proposal on her campaign a couple weeks ago. What does that mean for consumers, though?
Obviously, I would prefer the environment for us to divest from oil and move to renewables, but what does divesting specifically from private utilities mean for consumers?
You know, it's a really good question, Nat. And I think it's important to note that the idea that you're describing of having a public distribution utility, that is not a science fiction idea. We actually do have small public utilities already right here in New York State. We've got 40 or 50 or so towns that own their distribution lines. And we have...
public ownership of distribution in many states and in fact, many countries around the world. I will say that it's hard to say in terms of a hypothetical how that would impact prices, but I will say that for those 40 or 50 or so public utilities right here in New York, they do have hands down cheaper electric bills than the rest of the state.
And are they stable in the same way? I mean, insofar as it seems like our bills are skyrocketing, I'm curious if the public bills are more proportionate to the cost of energy or to the cost of generation.
It's a really good question, and I'll be transparent that I don't know the answer. I haven't looked side by side, apples to apples, with some of the different distribution companies in the state. But I would suspect that a lot of the volatility that you're talking about is on the generation side because of the hikes that you see because of the war in Iran.
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Chapter 3: Why are electricity bills so high in New York?
But I have to imagine that some of the political accountability that is inherent in the process that you're describing probably makes a big difference. I mean, people are really furious in New York about high electric bills. I think that's true across the country. And so I have to wonder if politically that is helping insulate the, you know, the rate payers in your area.
Yeah, because it's kind of wild because, as you all know, Idaho is incredibly red state. And traditionally, you'd think that it would be just kind of let them run wild. But it is very much It's severely regulated, and that's why I have a 3,400-square-foot house, and I only pay $130 a month for power.
You notice how he got quieter when he said that? I know.
I'm kind of embarrassed because I'm like, I don't want you guys to be all like, what an asshole. He's over here and paying like... So, anyways, but I'm just saying, it's kind of strange to me. And maybe you can explain it better.
How come everyone else seems to be talking about their rates going up so high, but then you see a state like Idaho or there's a couple of other states that don't have the same regulatory structure, but we're not seeing... Like my family that I have in Washington and Oregon, they're not seeing massive rate increases.
Is that just because they have more leverage in the it's not a renewable to technically, but like hydroelectric, hydroelectric and things like that.
So what you have, Chad, is. Shocker, Idaho doesn't use a lot of power. Yeah, there's that, too. So there's like 10 people here, just like Washington, Oregon, Idaho, hydroelectric power.
the the cheapest in the world easily and low demand like i live in oklahoma not a lot of demand my power bills are really cheap here um but this is mostly happening in the worst places highly populated areas and also in the upper midwest uh areas where population growth is exploding I can't even talk about this without thinking about PJM Interconnect.
But and as far as the structure, we have a similar thing here in Oklahoma. You know, they they do ask a public utility commission for the rate hikes, but. If anyone within our state legislature has a problem with their decision, they can actually go back and override the Public Utility Commission. So the Public Utility Commission approves them.
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Chapter 4: What role does local politics play in energy policy?
Is that why we're not? We're not investing.
Can I say something to that?
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I think that, Matt, your point about renewable energy bringing down costs, you know, for everyone, you know, and relieving some of the burden regardless of energy source. I think that that's really important to keep in mind here. So the way wholesale markets for electricity work is, you know, it's this kind of Dutch auction model where you have,
different generation sources feeding into the wholesale markets for electricity for a given territory or state in real time, with the cutoff being the amount you need to meet demand at that given time. It's a little bit of a tricky thing, but bear with me.
And it's arranged by price so that whatever the highest cost supply source is for that to meet that amount of demand, every other supplier gets that Cost or gets that gets that gets that price. So then, you know, during the summertime here in New York, we have 10 gas fired peak power plants, which are the dirtiest and most expensive generation sources in the state.
They were all built in the backyards of black and brown communities, working class communities in New York City. It's a legacy environmental injustice in our grid that organizers have been fighting for, you know, since they were built, basically. And during the summer, everybody turns on their air conditioner and we have to meet that demand.
And we turn on these gas fired peakers that are extremely dirty and extremely expensive. And every other generator gets that price when that happens. Every other generator in the wholesale market gets that price. So including the renewable. Exactly. So it really changes the value proposition across the board.
You know, I remember I was attending a kind of retreat for energy organizers and analysts. And, you know, a dear friend and colleague of mine was explaining how certain elements of the wholesale market work to some students. And I walked by just as she was explaining that point. And the student was like, that can't be how that works. And she was like, it is. He's like, that's crazy. Yeah.
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Chapter 5: How do renewable energy sources impact electricity costs?
Yeah.
So if you have time, if you're going to just indulge me on this final topic, because I know Matt's thoughts and I know Nat's thoughts somewhat. What are your feelings on nuclear power?
Well, you know, we take kind of an affordability lens on this. I will say that new nuclear tends to be extremely expensive. You know, the most recent Georgia plant went, you know, $17 billion over budget. And so... I think this is something that can get very heated when you go on energy Twitter or whatever. But we really do take an affordability perspective.
And I keep waiting for somebody to explain to me how this is going to be the best use of our resources if we're going to be investing in the grid. And I just haven't seen anybody be able to. to make it make sense, you know?
It doesn't make sense. Don't nuclear projects typically finish way behind schedule, too? Like, isn't our renewable energy source a little bit more, I mean, I'm sorry, I'm answering for my fault, but my understanding is it's just a very slow build at this point. Like, we can build solar now.
Is there is there any value in like so we have very little of our power here in Idaho comes from nuclear, even though the we were the first. It's funny because we were the first nuclear powered cities and came from Idaho. You guys in New York have like three or four nuclear power plants. Is there any value in trying to extend that in the interest of. of the climate crisis?
Like, because even though there's a huge upfront cost nuclear, I mean, it's hard to deny it is one of the cleanest out there other than obviously the waste that it can produce, which relative to, as we said, lithium is not, uh, as much as lithium waste, but it's also far more dangerous. Is there some, is there some value as a transition as we transition to trying to, uh,
Keep nuclear on the table for a while. I know building out a plan is huge. There's like $30 billion is how much it costs. That's probably not going to be the case. But the ones we have running, is it worth it to try to keep them going as we try to transition to more renewable energy?
I will share that part of my response to this just comes from our experience in New York, where I just witnessed our governor tear down years of progress through the Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act. The framing itself of nuclear as something that we can do as a transitionary measure assumes that we are actually making a transition to renewables.
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Chapter 6: What are the misconceptions about energy and climate policies?
Everyone should be more conservationist. It should be just a very easy route for us to take.
It's true. You're right as an American not to get trampled by all these corporations that don't want you to have individualism and the land that you're entitled to as an American. I'm trying to frame this. You as an individual. I love being individuals. Oh, we love being individuals so much. You, don't tread on me by putting a nuclear reactor or fracking crack gas into my state.
You got to think of it that way. All right. Capture our indignance. if not our spirit of unity that we sacrificed by the time Reagan was president. The key is trying to convince Matt State.
Let's not give Idaho too much credit. Like if they had a bunch of oil and gas, it might look totally different.
Oh, yeah. I mean, that's what I mean. A hundred percent. It's more varied. It's not a red or blue.
You know, they play the cards they're dealt and they were dealt a very nice, you know, hydroelectric.
And they do a very good job providing energy to an amount of people that is roughly equal to my neighborhood.
So we actually overproduce energy and we sell it to Oregon and California.
It's also very bipartisan, the kind of indignation that you see about this issue and that you see about high electricity bills. I mean, I'll tell you, I've done door knocking and canvassing and organizing on kind of a variety of issues over the course of my life. And I think that probably the easiest canvassing I've ever done is talking to people like, hey, how do you feel about Con Ed?
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Chapter 7: How can grassroots organizing influence energy decisions?
But, yeah, that's how it works. The cheapest power first. But the moment you use any more expensive power, all of it is more expensive. It's crazy that that's the way it's set up.
I really like the fact that he came across as down to earth, like more, how this impacts the average person. Because a lot of times you hear in this green energy world, it becomes very preachy of, and it kind of was how we were, remember our episode on the Democrat, their autopsy and how The Democratic Party loves to just kind of think at this high level, theoretical.
He's actually coming in and like, hey, this is how we get cheaper. This is how we get cleaner. This is how you do it. I like the fact that he came in and was like, hey, nuclear is okay. It's just we can't build it out because it's so expensive. And I kind of knew that. I just...
I'm glad that he came in and was like, this is the reality for this works for whether you're in New York or if you're in California or Idaho, Oklahoma, wherever. And I like having that type of guest on. That's not so common. thinking at such a high level, well, we need to save the Western yellow-backed butterfly from the power. And I'm like, that's cool, but how do we make it cheaper?
And he's like, this is how we do it.
You're about to find out that the flu vaccine was in that butterfly, but I hear what you're saying.
I know, something like that. Like, we just, the cure for cancer is in their butterfly wing dust or whatever.
But I know what you mean. It's very pragmatically focused, which I think is... It's like I said, it's not a disingenuous approach. This is not a partisan issue. I mean, this is a human issue. This is a populist issue, too, because we're the ones paying for these massive investments.
Money talks.
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Chapter 8: What future energy solutions are being proposed?
These are, and Matt alluded to it. We talked about the, the data centers. Those are being driven by what I call human or AI assisted humans. And so that's where they're coming from. And I'm actually a direct beneficiary. I take, I, I, so I have eosinophilic esophagitis. It's not, it's more just a annoyance than it is anything dangerous, but
There's a drug called dupilumab, and it's one of those MAP drugs that I take so I can manage it. And all of these new classes of drugs that we see are not trying to defend the data centers, but that's kind of... We're getting some benefit out of these. Humans are using kind of the AI to help them assist to do...
really quick trials on things rather than which allow them to get to approval faster. So very cool.
That is cool. And we also will probably discuss data centers more on another episode. So I'm sure we can, we can talk about the integration of medical research and all when we revisit that next time. But no, I mean, I'm only saying that to say you don't need to devalue what you're saying. Cause that's really important. And I'm also scrambling because I'm trying really hard to, um,
transition to the thing i'm about to say which is considerably less serious which is go for normally at the beginning of the episode i say we are recording this on monday evening you're listening on wednesday this is not a particularly timely episode but i do want to say that by the time you have listened to this on wednesday We've both seen the New York Knicks go 3-0 in the NBA Finals.
And I think we all know that was a great game. Jalen Brunson really outdid himself.
I'm going to back up here because we got two opposite of the opposing sides here.
It's currently Wednesday. We all know it's currently Wednesday when you're listening to this. And also that halftime shootout between Trump and Zoran. I mean, I don't know why Trump got himself into that, but Zoran cooked him. I don't know why they went down to a knockout game one-on-one, but I guess Trump thought he could double down on double nothing, but...
I think nationally this has really helped the mood. The guy just does not have a clean J. He wants to believe he's good at it, but Zoran's got the outside shot and he goes hard in the paint. So go Knicks. That's the least worst part of my week.
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