On today’s show: Trump’s pardons of the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers have fueled a battle over how history will view the Jan. 6 Capitol riot. Tom Jackman of the Washington Post examines this. And this week’s episode of Apple News In Conversation features reporting on America’s militias with ProPublica’s Joshua Kaplan. California’s attorney general charged a landlord with price gouging amid the wildfires ravaging the city. Los Angeles Times reporter Liam Dillon explains why that might serve as a deterrent. TikTok got an extension. What does the future of the app look like? NBC News has a look. Plus, why some people found themselves suddenly following Trump on social media, the controversy over AI at the Oscars, and the Super Bowl matchup will be set this weekend. Today’s episode was hosted by Shumita Basu. Correction: Sen. Mark Warner is the vice chairman of the Intelligence Committee. Due to an editing error, a previous version of this episode said he was chairman.
Chapter 1: What did Trump’s pardons mean for the January 6th rioters?
But first, of the more than 1,500 pardons President Trump handed out earlier this week for people who rioted at the Capitol on January 6th, at least one woman has rejected the offer. Pam Hemphill told NBC that it would send the wrong message.
Think about it. The message is, if I took a pardon... that what I did that day was OK. They were criminals. They broke the law. I broke the law. Pay the price.
Chapter 2: How do pardons influence public perception of political violence?
But Trump has been clear he doesn't see it that way. He's referred to January 6th as a, quote, day of love and described the rioters as patriots. Tom Jackman is a crime and justice reporter at The Washington Post. He says what we're seeing is a rewriting of history.
I have sat in the court for four years and watched the evidence and watched the videos. It's on video. This is not somebody's word against somebody's word. We can see what happened. We can see these individuals attacking the police, overrunning the police, using stun guns on the police, throwing flagpoles and fire extinguishers at the police. It happened. It's real.
The pardons are not popular with the public, according to a number of recent national polls. One conducted by Reuters and Ipsos during Trump's first two days in office found 58 percent of people surveyed disapproved of the idea of broad pardons. But Trump and his loyalists are eager to change the history books.
In fact, Speaker Mike Johnson announced the House would form a subcommittee to investigate, quote, false narratives about January 6th. Jackman told us he's heard concerns from people that the pardons could embolden extremists to carry out other politically motivated attacks.
That's a serious fear that a lot of terrorism-type folks are looking at, that people will think, heck, I can go out and attack a liberal judge or a liberal prosecutor or a liberal reporter that I don't like because this political violence has been approved and sanctioned by the president. And so even if I get caught, he'll let me out.
Stuart Rhodes and Enrique Tarrio, the leaders of the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys, respectively, received some of the harshest sentences for their roles in the violence on January 6th. Now they're out of prison and they're already talking about retribution. They've spoken this week about going after witnesses, jury members, prosecutors and judges that worked on their cases.
Here's Tarrio speaking to far-right activist and conspiracy theorist Alex Jones.
Success is going to be retribution, okay? And it's up to us. And when I say us, I include your listeners on there. You know, we got to do everything in our power to make sure that the next four years sets us up for the next hundred years.
I recently sat down with Josh Kaplan, who covers America's militia movement for ProPublica, and he told me how militias like the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers feel like the pardons give them a pass.
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Chapter 3: What historical events are similar to the January 6th Capitol riot?
I mean, to give a little historical perspective here, the last event similar to January 6th in the history of these movements in America was the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. when a man with militia ties blew up a government building and killed more than 100 people. It's one of the deadliest terrorist attacks in American history. The militia movement did not recover from that for over a decade.
That is what a lot of people, including a lot of people in the militia movement, thought would happen after January 6th. So this reshaping of the narrative, it really matters.
Kaplan is my guest on this week's episode of Apple News in Conversation. We talk about the future of militias and one man who took it upon himself to become a mole within these groups just so he could spill their secrets. We'll queue up that episode to play next, or you can find it in the podcast's app. And now to Los Angeles, where authorities continue to battle multiple wildfires.
Rain is expected over the weekend, which may bring some relief to a city that's seen thousands of structures destroyed and many more residents displaced. As authorities attempt to get these fires under control, there have been widespread reports of price gouging in the housing market, which is illegal in California during a state of emergency.
And this week, California's Attorney General Rob Bonta filed charges against a real estate agent in a community near Altadena. It's the first lawsuit of its kind related to these fires. Here's Liam Dillon, a reporter who covers housing for the LA Times.
The AG alleges that this real estate agent raised the price on a rental home by 38%, which was, according to the AG, in violation of state law that says you can't raise prices after a natural disaster by more than 10%.
The real estate agent who was charged with price gouging told Dillon it was all a misunderstanding. He says he raised the price after learning the property was in a desirable school district and eventually rented it to fire victims for what he claims is below market value. Attorney General Bonta is under a lot of pressure to go after price gougers as fires rage in the city.
People in the community have been compiling spreadsheets documenting price changes for rentals. As of midweek, the AG's office said it sent out 500 warning letters in response to tips. Dillon told us the LA Times has seen increases ranging from 20 to as much as 60 percent.
You know, you have 11,000 or more homes that have been destroyed in these two major fires in Los Angeles. That means tens of thousands of people who could be looking for immediate housing. And what we've been finding in the market is reports of bidding wars and reports of, you know, frankly, landlords taking advantage of needy folks and raising prices on their rental units.
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Chapter 4: How is price gouging affecting wildfire victims in Los Angeles?
And then I did some research and it was pretty obvious that they were breaking the law. I mean, there's a penal code out there. The government created a state of emergency. So since then, I've just been trying to get some press to let landlords know that what they're doing is not only immoral, but also illegal and they need to stop.
Dillon, meanwhile, told us even though the AG has so far gone after just one landlord, there is a chance it'll serve as a warning.
And I think, you know, as much as one individual prosecution, you know, may be a drop in the bucket for the circumstances that are going on. I think he hopes there will be a deterrent effect for some of the sort of the bad actors that are out there.
Now to the chaos involving what happens next to TikTok, the app used by around 170 million Americans. After hitting up against Congress's deadline to either find a new buyer or be banned in the U.S., the app went briefly dark on Saturday, only to reemerge on Sunday when Trump promised a way forward. And TikTok was pretty vocal in crediting Trump with the turnaround.
But numerous outlets have reported it's not clear whether he actually has the power on his own to save TikTok. The executive order only directs the attorney general to not enforce the ban passed by Congress. That's why you're not seeing TikTok return to app stores yet. But there are some viable avenues to save TikTok that have emerged.
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Chapter 5: What actions is California taking against price gougers?
The most obvious and legally plausible, Congress would have to repeal the ban. Republican Senator Rand Paul and Democratic Senator Ro Khanna have introduced a bill to do exactly that. But The Verge says their efforts will surely face opposition. The ban was passed by Congress with overwhelming bipartisan support.
And there are members who still fear that the Chinese government may use the app to spy on Americans or disseminate disinformation. It was their primary motivation for giving TikTok this ultimatum in the first place. And that fear, you might remember, really originated with Trump in his first term. He led an effort to ban TikTok in 2020 over national security concerns.
And his 180 on this issue has been confusing for lawmakers. Virginia Senator and Vice Chairman of the Intelligence Committee Mark Warner recently spoke about the president's change of heart.
And the irony in all this was Donald Trump was the first guy to point out this problem. Matter of fact, his administration had to convince me. They did a great job of convincing me and the overwhelming members of Congress.
Chapter 6: What are the implications of the housing market during emergencies?
Another possible avenue we could go down, TikTok gets sold in the next 70-some-odd days before Trump's executive order expires. Trump has suggested that the U.S. or a U.S.-based company take ownership of 50% of the app.
Although China had previously opposed the sale of TikTok, in recent days, it seems like its foreign ministry has warmed up to the possibility of joint ownership between ByteDance and an American company. Beijing's change in tune may have to do with tariffs. Since taking office, Trump has threatened an additional 10 percent tariff on Chinese products.
And Chinese officials may be trying to bring the temperature down by cooperating on other fronts. Trump has also said he is open to Tesla CEO Elon Musk or Oracle co-founder Larry Ellison making the purchase, although neither of them have said they plan to do so. A group including billionaire entrepreneur Frank McCourt and backed by Shark Tank investor Kevin O'Leary has made an offer.
Social media creator Mr. Beast is part of a group of investors that have expressed interest in buying. There's also Perplexity AI, an artificial intelligence startup that's put an offer in. But if none of these options materialize, we might have another moment in April when Trump's executive order expires and when the app could go dark again, this time possibly for good.
A few other stories we're watching today. A lot of people on Facebook and Instagram this week were questioning why, seemingly out of the blue, they were following President Trump, First Lady Melania Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance. There's an easy explanation. Those accounts, which are managed by the White House, transfer from the person who held the title before to the next person.
This practice started during the Obama-Trump transition. But since it happens so infrequently, it's not surprising we forget about it when these transitions roll around. What's more confusing, though, and something we don't have a good answer to yet but will be following, is why some users are reporting issues with unfollowing these accounts.
For what it's worth, a Meta spokesperson said it may take some time for follow and unfollow requests to go through as these accounts change hands. Now to the Academy Awards. Nominees have been announced. The movie Emilia Perez is leading with 13 nominations, setting a record for a non-English language film.
Tied for second with 10 nominations each were Wicked and The Brutalist, a film about a Jewish-Hungarian architect who flees Europe after World War II. The film is getting attention for its use of artificial intelligence to enhance the Hungarian accents of stars Felicity Jones and Adrian Brody.
This has raised new questions around how to fairly evaluate an actor's performance when they're up for an award if their performance was enhanced somehow with AI. And finally, this weekend, the Super Bowl matchup will be set. The Philadelphia Eagles play the Cinderella Washington Commanders, who were quite the underdogs heading into the season but made a historic playoff run.
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