Show notes
Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson of Pepperdine University discuss cantos 13-17 of Dante's Purgatorio--the purging of envy and wrath. Check out our 51 question and answer guide (35 pages!) to the Purgatorio. Check out our YOUTUBE page which has our episodes in playlists!Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson joins Deacon Harrison Garlick to discuss Cantos 13–17, covering the terraces of envy (Canto 13) and wrath (Cantos 14–17), with a strong focus on the central discourses in the middle of the Comedy. In Canto 13, the envious have their eyelids sewn shut with iron wire, a contrapasso that forces them to rely on others and recognize interdependence. Wilson explains: “envy is to look cross-eyed on another's blessings... to look askance,” and the disembodied voices proclaim examples of generosity (Cana, “I am Orestes,” “Love them from whom you’ve suffered evil”), teaching a mindset of abundance over scarcity (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson). Sapia humbly confesses her envy and malice, contrasting with the divisive souls in Inferno.Cantos 14–15 transition to wrath, with visions of meekness (Mary and Joseph seeking Jesus, a tyrant sparing a youth, Stephen forgiving his stoners) and Virgil’s discourse on goods: exhaustible earthly goods versus inexhaustible spiritual ones. Wilson notes: “envy stems from a mindset of scarcity versus Mary’s mindset of abundance... able to supply where it looks like there’s not enough in the world” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson). The pivotal Canto 16 (the exact midpoint of the Comedy) features Marco Lombardo’s sermon on free will: “If the present world has gone astray, the cause is in you, look at yourselves” (Marco via transcript). Wilson calls it “the clearest sermon that Dante has about what’s wrong with the world,” emphasizing that sin arises from misused free will, not fate or stars, and critiques the separation of temporal and spiritual powers.Canto 17 concludes the wrath terrace with Virgil’s discourse on love as the root of all action (“Neither Creator nor creature was ever without love... natural or of the mind” – Virgil via transcript), which can be misdirected, deficient, or excessive. Wilson highlights the shift from reason to grace: “reason can’t do it alone... you need this other kind of intervention” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson). The cantos underscore Purgatorio’s hopeful pedagogy: purgation reorders love through grace, habituation, and contemplation, moving from misdirected to deficient love in preparation for the excessive attachments above. Wilson stresses the urgency: “the Purgatorio shows humanity in motion, dynamic humanity... it has the immediacy... that is an urgency to it” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson).Chapters00:00 Introduction to the Great Books Podcast04:06 Exploring Dante's Purgatorio07:20 The Great Books Program at Pepperdine University10:18 The Significance of Purgatorio13:27 Understanding Envy in Purgatorio16:17 Contrary Virtues: Generosity and Kindness19:22 The Role of Sight and Blindness in Envy22:15 Dante's Moral Lessons on Envy25:14 Comparative Analysis with Inferno30:33 Dante's Poetic Structure and Contrapasso32:15 Comparative Analysis of Characters in Inferno and Purgatorio33:54 The Role of Good and Bad Examples in Moral Education34:14 The Shift from Temporal to Eternal Mindsets34:20 Understanding Canto 14: The Importance of Examples39:35 Canto 15: The Inquiry into Goods and Wrath49:58 Canto 16: The Purging of Wrath and Examples of Virtue51:35 Ecstatic Visions and Penitent Souls52:19 The Tyrant's Moment of Virtue53:28 Humanity in Purgatorio54:38 The Role of Mary in Purgatory56:02 Saint Stephen's Example of Forgiveness57:12 Virgil's Limitations as a Guide59:12 The Nature of Freedom in Purgatory01:03:07 The Importance of Canto 1601:04:37 Understanding Freedom in Dante's Context01:07:32 The Role of Law and Governance01:14:39 Self-Reflection and the State of the World01:23:48 Exploring Wrath in Purgatory01:30:57 Understanding the Structure of PurgatoryKeywords: Dante's Purgatorio, Cantos 13-17, spiritual growth, virtues and vices, education, great books, Dante analysis Dante's Divine Comedy, Purgatory, Virtues and Vices, Free Will, Theology, Morality, Literature, Catholic Teaching, Spiritual Journey