Join Dr. Regan for this episode on the neurodiversity movement, autism affirming services, and the importance of allowing for complexity in our understanding of autism. Dr. Regan's online presentations with Zur Institute March, 2023: Is my Client on the Spectrum? Dispelling Myths About Autism Diagnoses Autism Assessment: The Seven Diagnostic Criteria Brought to Life Dr. Regan's Resources Course for Clinicians - Interventions in Autism: Helping Clients Stay Centered, Connect with Others, and Engage in Life Course for Clinicians: ASD Differential Diagnoses and Associated Characteristics Book: Understanding Autism in Adults and Aging Adults, 2nd ed Audiobook Book: Understanding Autistic Behaviors Autism in the Adult website homepage Website Resources for Clinicians Read the transcript here: 1 00:00:07,050 -- 00:00:10,400 Welcome to the podcast Autism in the Adult. 2 00:00:10,540 -- 00:00:12,310 I'm Dr Theresa Regan, 3 00:00:12,320 -- 00:00:14,060 a neuropsychologist, 4 00:00:14,100 -- 00:00:16,150 the mother of a teen on the spectrum, 5 00:00:16,160 -- 00:00:22,680 and the founder and director of an autism diagnostic clinic in Central Illinois for adolescents, 6 00:00:22,690 -- 00:00:24,720 adults and aging adults. 7 00:00:26,490 -- 00:00:32,300 Sometimes I get emails from people asking if I perform autism assessments for adults. 8 00:00:32,310 -- 00:00:33,080 And indeed, 9 00:00:33,080 -- 00:00:35,030 that's my full time job. 10 00:00:35,040 -- 00:00:36,850 So I go to work every day. 11 00:00:36,850 -- 00:00:42,730 I see patients and clients in a medical setting for evaluations and recommendations. 12 00:00:44,260 -- 00:00:58,920 Then I also have other things that I've chosen to do in the topic area of autism because I'm passionate about the people impacted and the positive things that can happen when we understand more about the autistic neurology. 13 00:01:00,000 -- 00:01:12,240 I do have a few online presentations coming up through Zur Institute which is a continuing education program for professionals. 14 00:01:12,250 -- 00:01:20,970 I'll include a link in the podcast show notes to these programs so you can look at the descriptions and registration links. 15 00:01:21,340 -- 00:01:26,440 And the first one is Tuesday March 7th 2023. 16 00:01:26,440 -- 00:01:27,740 For one hour. 17 00:01:27,760 -- 00:01:34,100 The presentation covers information about the basic foundational rules of the autism. 18 00:01:34,100 -- 00:01:45,750 Diagnostic criteria Will be dispelling myths about the foundations and requirements that may prevent people from being referred for assessment appropriately. 19 00:01:45,870 -- 00:01:48,740 And the second presentation is on Saturday, 20 00:01:48,750 -- 00:01:50,210 March 25, 21 00:01:50,220 -- 00:02:02,410 that's for two hours and this presentation will highlight the seven diagnostic criteria what they mean and also what they look like in a clinical case of a young adult female, 22 00:02:02,410 -- 00:02:05,580 just to illustrate some of the concepts. 23 00:02:05,900 -- 00:02:08,860 So if you are a clinician or you know, 24 00:02:08,870 -- 00:02:13,420 of professionals in your area who are wanting to learn more about autism, 25 00:02:13,430 -- 00:02:16,420 this may be a good resource opportunity. 26 00:02:16,940 -- 00:02:22,020 The topic of the podcast today is actually not the topic that I had been working on. 27 00:02:22,030 -- 00:02:23,860 Uh to record, 28 00:02:23,870 -- 00:02:29,120 I've had multiple interactions about a different topic over the last few weeks. 29 00:02:29,120 -- 00:02:35,460 And it really struck me as perhaps something that would be timely to talk about or helpful to process. 30 00:02:35,470 -- 00:02:37,090 And so in this episode, 31 00:02:37,090 -- 00:02:47,760 I wanted to talk about neurodiversity and autism affirming approaches to serving those on the spectrum. 32 00:02:47,770 -- 00:02:54,790 I'm gonna talk about three things within the context of this episode. 33 00:02:54,790 -- 00:02:57,480 One is just what are we talking about? 34 00:02:57,480 -- 00:03:01,050 What's the definition when we talk about neuro diversity? 35 00:03:01,060 -- 00:03:11,630 The second is what kinds of conditions or characteristics might we want to include under the umbrella of neuro diversity? 36 00:03:11,640 -- 00:03:30,220 And the third has to do with a viewpoint that some put forward that says that only individuals who have diagnoses of neuro divergence should be offering services to those on the spectrum. 37 00:03:30,230 -- 00:03:32,820 When we talk about neuro diversity, 38 00:03:32,830 -- 00:03:40,800 we're basically talking about the idea that people experience and interact with the world around them in many different ways. 39 00:03:40,810 -- 00:03:44,570 And this concept of course, 40 00:03:44,570 -- 00:03:47,450 neuro being neurology and diversity, 41 00:03:47,460 -- 00:03:48,760 meaning diversity. 42 00:03:48,760 -- 00:03:58,080 So we all have variations in our neurologic wiring and there's no one quote right way of thinking, 43 00:03:58,090 -- 00:04:05,700 learning and behaving and that all neurologic differences should be appreciated as part of natural variation. 44 00:04:06,370 -- 00:04:10,350 And I explain those concepts, 45 00:04:10,360 -- 00:04:16,990 knowing and wanting to communicate that people will defined neuro diversity differently. 46 00:04:16,990 -- 00:04:23,630 And so I'm trying to use phrases that are commonly used um in describing what that means, 47 00:04:23,640 -- 00:04:25,750 one person can say that, 48 00:04:25,760 -- 00:04:26,230 you know, 49 00:04:26,230 -- 00:04:31,060 that isn't really what it means to me and that's completely fine. 50 00:04:31,070 -- 00:04:39,020 It's such a complex topic that getting it right as everyone would define it is difficult. 51 00:04:39,020 -- 00:04:40,260 But basically, 52 00:04:40,270 -- 00:05:06,220 it is this understanding that there's variations on our wiring and there's this emphasis that there's not one right way to be connected neurologically um at its best when we're talking about neuro diversity as a concept and autism affirmation as a concept. 53 00:05:06,230 -- 00:05:29,960 It really helps ward against an approach to intervention that may focus on correcting or fixing behaviors in the neuro diverse individual only because the behaviors are unusual or atypical. When a therapist is neuro diversity affirming or autism affirming, 54 00:05:29,970 -- 00:05:44,310 this is often used to emphasize that they understand that neuro divergence itself is not a flaw or an illness that needs to be fixed or corrected. 55 00:05:44,640 -- 00:05:47,820 And we're gonna talk about this a little bit more later. 56 00:05:47,820 -- 00:05:52,640 But neuro divergence often refers to autism, 57 00:05:52,640 -- 00:05:56,030 but it is a much larger umbrella right now. 58 00:05:56,030 -- 00:05:58,020 And so we'll talk about that as well. 59 00:05:58,800 -- 00:06:02,940 However, 60 00:06:04,180 -- 00:06:05,410 at the same time, 61 00:06:05,410 -- 00:06:23,080 we hope that the autism affirming therapist can also acknowledge some parts of autism that really may create a lot of difficulty or pain for the person that's presenting for care. 62 00:06:23,090 -- 00:06:25,230 So at its best, 63 00:06:25,230 -- 00:06:39,420 we really hope there's this balance of understanding of the gifts and strengths in the autistic experience in the struggles and difficulties that someone may really inherently experience, 64 00:06:39,430 -- 00:06:43,960 not because of the attitudes of society or, 65 00:06:43,970 -- 00:06:44,690 or anything, 66 00:06:44,690 -- 00:06:51,640 but because this neurologic piece is really giving them difficulty. At it's extreme, 67 00:06:52,260 -- 00:07:24,600 there may be some in the autism affirming community or the neuro divergence community that really emphasize that the autistic experience is very positive in its essence that the diverse experience should always be emphasized as strength and the variation doesn't involve any inherent struggle. 68 00:07:25,560 -- 00:07:28,740 I think that when 69 00:07:28,740 -- 00:07:32,970 we get to that categorical kind of description, 70 00:07:32,980 -- 00:07:39,740 whether someone is talking about the autistic experience is all bad... or all good, 71 00:07:40,010 -- 00:07:40,430 you know, 72 00:07:40,430 -- 00:07:49,340 I think we're missing the complexity of the human experience and specifically here, 73 00:07:49,340 -- 00:07:51,210 the autistic experience. 74 00:07:51,220 -- 00:08:05,430 So what I would say about the movement and the concept of neuro diversity is it's really best when we're able to stay centered in the complexity... in the center, 75 00:08:05,430 -- 00:08:07,550 not those two extreme categories, 76 00:08:07,550 -- 00:08:18,990 but in the center of this mix of good and difficult where most often the truth lies in that center in that complexity. 77 00:08:19,990 -- 00:08:24,140 Let me explain what the DSM 5, 78 00:08:24,140 -- 00:08:32,620 that's the diagnostic manual for many of the conditions that people refer to as neurodivergent... 79 00:08:32,630 -- 00:08:39,240 I want to talk about the criteria they use for when something is called a diagnosis. 80 00:08:39,240 -- 00:08:41,880 So this is not specific to autism. 81 00:08:41,890 -- 00:08:46,040 This could include learning disability, 82 00:08:46,050 -- 00:08:47,250 autism, 83 00:08:47,260 -- 00:08:48,360 psychosis, 84 00:08:48,360 -- 00:08:49,400 depression, 85 00:08:49,410 -- 00:08:50,960 lots of different things. 86 00:08:50,960 -- 00:09:01,810 And there are two things that they really focus on as being present in order for a diagnosis to be relevant. 87 00:09:01,810 -- 00:09:04,760 And so one is that the condition, 88 00:09:04,770 -- 00:09:19,440 the constellation of characteristics, is statistically atypical ... that it's not the most common constellation that we see in the daily human experience. 89 00:09:19,450 -- 00:09:23,410 It's not the most common state. 90 00:09:24,060 -- 00:09:24,340 Now, 91 00:09:24,340 -- 00:09:33,970 the second thing though is that the atypical constellation of characteristics must cause some form of difficulty for the individual, 92 00:09:33,980 -- 00:09:34,490 you know, 93 00:09:34,490 -- 00:09:36,500 does it work against their physical health? 94 00:09:36,500 -- 00:09:39,580 Does it reduce their safety in some situations? 95 00:09:39,590 -- 00:09:43,320 Is it associated with internal distress, 96 00:09:43,320 -- 00:09:46,810 does it prevent the person from reaching goals for daily living, 97 00:09:46,810 -- 00:09:48,290 like maintaining work? 98 00:09:48,550 -- 00:09:51,660 Is it associated with pain and relationships? 99 00:09:51,660 -- 00:10:01,860 So it has to have some functional impact that has worked against the well being of this individual. 100 00:10:01,870 -- 00:10:02,490 So, 101 00:10:02,490 -- 00:10:08,070 both things according to the diagnostic manual must be present for a diagnosis. 102 00:10:08,080 -- 00:10:11,530 There has to be this atypical constellation, 103 00:10:11,530 -- 00:10:20,590 but there also has to be ... that this atypical constellation has been the root of some functional struggle. 104 00:10:21,450 -- 00:10:31,440 So if there are individuals who have the autistic neurology and it has never been a source of functional difficulty, 105 00:10:31,450 -- 00:10:36,950 they actually don't meet the criteria for a diagnosis as defined in the in the manual. 106 00:10:36,960 -- 00:10:40,710 So when we're talking about having an official diagnosis, 107 00:10:40,720 -- 00:10:42,010 that would be part of it, 108 00:10:42,010 -- 00:10:43,540 that in some season, 109 00:10:43,540 -- 00:10:44,700 in some way, 110 00:10:44,710 -- 00:10:50,130 there's really been a struggle associated with those neurologic characteristics. 111 00:10:50,790 -- 00:10:51,680 And this is why, 112 00:10:51,680 -- 00:10:52,560 for example, 113 00:10:52,560 -- 00:10:57,680 depression is a diagnosis as well. It's not rare, 114 00:10:57,690 -- 00:11:00,650 but ... it's not the most typical mood state. 115 00:11:00,650 -- 00:11:04,600 And when people get stuck in that atypical mood state, 116 00:11:04,610 -- 00:11:08,230 it causes these functional areas of difficulty. 117 00:11:08,230 -- 00:11:09,330 It's hard to get up, 118 00:11:09,330 -- 00:11:10,470 it's hard to go to work, 119 00:11:10,470 -- 00:11:12,660 it's hard to maintain relationships. 120 00:11:12,850 -- 00:11:22,610 And so that's where we shift from saying something is diverse to something that 121 00:11:22,620 -- 00:11:29,740 we're calling a diagnosis... that rather than just being mood-diversity where gosh, 122 00:11:29,740 -- 00:11:31,410 I've had a bad day, 123 00:11:31,930 -- 00:11:37,590 but it's really not impacted functionally how I'm doing across time... 124 00:11:37,600 -- 00:11:48,460 but when I get stuck in this mood state and it's really interfering with wellness in my daily life, 125 00:11:48,460 -- 00:11:50,440 that's when it's a diagnosis. 126 00:11:51,270 -- 00:11:51,660 Now, 127 00:11:51,660 -- 00:12:01,130 autism as a diagnosis does require that difficulty at some point in your life that you've really had the autistic neurology, 128 00:12:01,140 -- 00:12:07,590 making it hard to function in a way that's comfortable where you're achieving your goals. 129 00:12:08,030 -- 00:12:08,440 Now, 130 00:12:08,440 -- 00:12:13,360 autism as a diagnosis occurs in 2% of individuals, 131 00:12:13,370 -- 00:12:15,290 they would meet the full criteria. 132 00:12:15,300 -- 00:12:27,890 The neurologic characteristics hang together in those individuals because they hang together anatomically and they have also impacted the individual's well being their goals, 133 00:12:27,890 -- 00:12:29,390 their functional life. 134 00:12:29,910 -- 00:12:30,170 Now, 135 00:12:30,170 -- 00:12:36,400 does this mean that the neurology of autism causes pain or distress in every way? 136 00:12:36,410 -- 00:12:37,870 Absolutely not. 137 00:12:37,880 -- 00:12:43,160 Does it mean that the difficulty is constant throughout the whole lifespan? 138 00:12:43,580 -- 00:12:44,440 No. 139 00:12:44,450 -- 00:12:46,100 So in my viewpoint, 140 00:12:46,110 -- 00:12:52,160 all humans have characteristics that work for them in some ways and against them in some ways. 141 00:12:52,170 -- 00:12:54,870 And this is true in autism as well. 142 00:12:54,880 -- 00:12:55,870 For example, 143 00:12:55,870 -- 00:13:00,570 the attention to detail can be a great strength in some work projects. 144 00:13:00,570 -- 00:13:08,360 Whereas it can really create difficulty when the ultimate goal is speed and generalization rather than detail. 145 00:13:09,070 -- 00:13:22,980 So much of the benefit for the autistic individual and those who love them is this increased awareness of how their characteristics may work for them or against them in different contexts or across life seasons? 146 00:13:23,510 -- 00:13:23,790 Now, 147 00:13:23,790 -- 00:13:25,180 having said that again, 148 00:13:25,180 -- 00:13:40,460 remember that individuals who meet that full criteria by definition have had a level of neurologic difference that really increases the risk of difficulty and a lot of these functional areas compared with someone with a different neurology, 149 00:13:41,100 -- 00:13:45,930 we know that every human will have this mix of gifts and weaknesses, 150 00:13:45,930 -- 00:13:47,270 strengths and struggles, 151 00:13:47,280 -- 00:13:49,510 abilities and limitations. 152 00:13:49,520 -- 00:13:51,510 And for one person, 153 00:13:51,520 -- 00:13:52,070 you know, 154 00:13:52,070 -- 00:13:57,780 he may excel in athletics but struggle to read at functional levels. 155 00:13:57,790 -- 00:14:05,040 So he can't read a contract or release or a medical form without struggling and getting taken advantage of, 156 00:14:05,040 -- 00:14:09,390 that's a neurologic difference in that reading comprehension. 157 00:14:09,790 -- 00:14:18,050 Another person may be able to produce wonderful needlework that requires really good fine motor skills appreciation of color 158 00:14:18,050 -- 00:14:18,770 palettes, 159 00:14:18,770 -- 00:14:20,660 creativity and design. 160 00:14:20,670 -- 00:14:21,450 However, 161 00:14:21,450 -- 00:14:30,420 they might struggle to keep blood sugar levels even and their pancreas just isn't helping them with this task as much as we would wish. 162 00:14:30,430 -- 00:14:33,810 And maybe they take insulin shots because of this. 163 00:14:34,400 -- 00:14:39,960 I bring these examples up just to say that in our human form, 164 00:14:39,970 -- 00:14:48,650 we all have gifts and strengths and triumphs and skill sets. 165 00:14:48,660 -- 00:14:59,580 And we also will have some form of limitation or struggle at some part in our life and my struggle, 166 00:14:59,580 -- 00:15:03,850 my limitation in my human form may be different than yours. 167 00:15:04,100 -- 00:15:12,010 But I know that the commonality of the human experience is that you also will have some strength, 168 00:15:12,010 -- 00:15:16,520 some gift in your human form and some limitation, 169 00:15:16,520 -- 00:15:19,500 some struggle in that human form. 170 00:15:19,510 -- 00:15:27,980 And for some their area of gift and struggle may involve aspects of this autistic neurology. 171 00:15:29,200 -- 00:15:34,380 I think we do best for each other when we appreciate all sides of our humanity, 172 00:15:34,420 -- 00:15:36,550 that these are my strengths, 173 00:15:36,550 -- 00:15:38,030 these are my limitations, 174 00:15:38,030 -- 00:15:39,710 this is my humanity, 175 00:15:39,870 -- 00:15:43,840 this mix of good and difficult and strong and weak. 176 00:15:43,850 -- 00:15:55,770 And I'll always have a mix of this and this is what it is to be human and to truly show honor and respect and appreciation to the personhood of each individual. 177 00:15:55,780 -- 00:16:00,960 We allow all those things in the mix to be viewed and discussed. 178 00:16:01,030 -- 00:16:04,340 There's no reason to only talk about easy things, 179 00:16:04,340 -- 00:16:05,120 bright things, 180 00:16:05,120 -- 00:16:06,220 successful things. 181 00:16:06,220 -- 00:16:13,630 We can talk about all the messiness of each of our humanity and still affirm that every single person, 182 00:16:13,640 -- 00:16:15,420 no matter their age, 183 00:16:15,430 -- 00:16:16,030 culture, 184 00:16:16,030 -- 00:16:17,340 health abilities, 185 00:16:17,340 -- 00:16:18,580 spirituality, 186 00:16:18,590 -- 00:16:19,340 gender, 187 00:16:19,340 -- 00:16:20,880 any of these things, 188 00:16:20,890 -- 00:16:38,020 every single person is filled with inherent value and is deserving of honor and respect because that is inherent to their personhood and having a gift does not make them any more valued in having limitations. 189 00:16:38,020 -- 00:16:41,120 Does not take away any of their value. 190 00:16:41,550 -- 00:16:44,140 When someone is celebrating and rejoicing, 191 00:16:44,140 -- 00:16:47,220 we can come alongside and celebrate too. 192 00:16:47,420 -- 00:16:49,440 And when someone is grieving, 193 00:16:49,450 -- 00:16:54,530 when someone is struggling with something or coming across their own limitations, 194 00:16:54,530 -- 00:16:58,540 we also come alongside them in this as well. 195 00:16:58,550 -- 00:17:00,860 We can acknowledge the struggle, 196 00:17:00,870 -- 00:17:03,640 we can offer community assistance, 197 00:17:03,650 -- 00:17:10,640 anything that we can bring to the table in this moment of of humanity and coming together. 198 00:17:10,650 -- 00:17:13,890 So let's talk about the second topic, 199 00:17:13,890 -- 00:17:25,000 which is What kinds of diagnoses or characteristics do we want to consider as under that neuro diversity umbrella. 200 00:17:25,010 -- 00:17:38,640 So the neuro diversity movement began in the 90s as a way of talking about autism and sometimes attention deficit and the real benefit of it was that it, 201 00:17:38,650 -- 00:17:56,780 it championed the humanity of everyone with neuro diverse characteristics and made sure that they weren't being looked at as less than or somehow not as valued in society. 202 00:17:57,410 -- 00:18:07,690 Examples of conditions that are currently considered under the neuro diversity umbrella often include in addition to autism and attention deficit, 203 00:18:07,700 -- 00:18:10,370 things like obsessive compulsive disorder, 204 00:18:10,370 -- 00:18:11,680 bipolar disorder, 205 00:18:11,680 -- 00:18:13,020 dyslexia, 206 00:18:13,030 -- 00:18:14,800 and dyspraxia. 207 00:18:15,870 -- 00:18:16,950 But now, 208 00:18:16,960 -- 00:18:18,640 even though in the beginning, 209 00:18:18,640 -- 00:18:26,350 we often would talk about autism or attention deficit as being a large part of neuro diversity. 210 00:18:26,360 -- 00:18:27,010 Now, 211 00:18:27,010 -- 00:18:43,020 there's a much bigger umbrella that people um talk about as involving these kinds of conditions and it's kind of growing all the time and there's not an inherent difficulty with that, 212 00:18:43,020 -- 00:19:02,280 but there are some challenges with having the umbrella be very narrow or having it be really um inclusive because neuro diversity at its most inclusive is anything that has diverse neurology as part of its definition. 213 00:19:02,290 -- 00:19:03,510 So, 214 00:19:03,710 -- 00:19:08,910 if we're going to expand it beyond autism and attention deficit, 215 00:19:08,910 -- 00:19:18,120 that we're really going to um be expanding it to include everything with diverse neurology. 216 00:19:18,120 -- 00:19:23,850 And so that's going to include things like spinal cord injury, 217 00:19:23,860 -- 00:19:24,710 stroke, 218 00:19:24,720 -- 00:19:25,970 cerebral palsy, 219 00:19:25,970 -- 00:19:28,150 parkinson's traumatic brain injury, 220 00:19:28,150 -- 00:19:29,230 encephalitis, 221 00:19:29,240 -- 00:19:30,430 brain tumor, 222 00:19:30,430 -- 00:19:31,750 multiple sclerosis, 223 00:19:31,750 -- 00:19:32,820 hydrocephalus, 224 00:19:32,830 -- 00:19:34,020 Alzheimer's disease, 225 00:19:34,020 -- 00:19:35,920 and all other forms of dementia, 226 00:19:35,930 -- 00:19:37,980 all learning difficulties, 227 00:19:37,990 -- 00:19:40,880 intellectual disability and so on. 228 00:19:41,500 -- 00:19:46,300 If we're going to use the umbrella to be all inclusive of neurologic diversity, 229 00:19:46,310 -- 00:19:51,090 we are essentially going to be talking about all neurologic conditions. 230 00:19:51,340 -- 00:19:52,170 In which case, 231 00:19:52,170 -- 00:19:56,240 we really kind of lost the meaning of the term itself. 232 00:19:56,250 -- 00:20:01,010 So I'm not sure that it's as powerful a term or meaningful a term. 233 00:20:01,800 -- 00:20:04,120 But if that's what we prefer, 234 00:20:04,120 -- 00:20:05,900 we certainly can do this. 235 00:20:05,910 -- 00:20:07,620 I just think at some point, 236 00:20:07,620 -- 00:20:15,560 we'll need to decide what meaning do we want the term to include and to be specific, 237 00:20:15,560 -- 00:20:28,640 knowing that there are a lot of neuro diverse conditions that would have to be under the umbrella if we're going to be all inclusive for neuro diverse conditions. 238 00:20:29,480 -- 00:20:29,910 So, 239 00:20:29,910 -- 00:20:30,620 in summary, 240 00:20:30,620 -- 00:20:31,600 so far, 241 00:20:31,610 -- 00:20:38,470 I would suggest that we think about what kind of meaning we want the term to have as far as neurology. 242 00:20:38,470 -- 00:20:48,170 And then also are we able to approach autism in a way that acknowledges all the strengths and the struggles that each individual presents with? 243 00:20:48,180 -- 00:20:51,240 Always understanding that in all of this mix, 244 00:20:51,250 -- 00:21:06,870 every person is filled with inherent value and you are important and your importance is never defined by strengths or limitations and you will always have a mix of both because you are human. 245 00:21:07,660 -- 00:21:08,000 Now, 246 00:21:08,000 -- 00:21:23,280 in this final section will be addressing an opinion that some have put forth that states that it's really not okay for individuals without an autism diagnosis or some form of neurodivergent diagnosis. 247 00:21:23,290 -- 00:21:23,700 Again, 248 00:21:23,700 -- 00:21:25,270 this is ill defined, 249 00:21:25,460 -- 00:21:34,370 but it's not all right for these individuals to provide services or input to autistic individuals essentially, 250 00:21:34,370 -- 00:21:38,750 only autistic providers should serve those on the spectrum. 251 00:21:38,760 -- 00:21:40,780 Uh For example, 252 00:21:40,780 -- 00:21:51,550 there are some workplaces that serve neurodivergent clients and only hire those with neurodivergent diagnoses. 253 00:21:52,110 -- 00:21:57,940 I think my response to this is similar to my response to the topics that we've covered so far, 254 00:21:57,940 -- 00:22:12,740 which is basically that I think the truth and the life and the best outcomes are often found in the center rather than um at either categorical opinion. 255 00:22:13,020 -- 00:22:17,950 So anytime we're tempted to go for that uh kind of simple, 256 00:22:17,950 -- 00:22:18,870 straightforward, 257 00:22:18,880 -- 00:22:21,550 only this and never that kind of thought process, 258 00:22:21,550 -- 00:22:28,380 we're really limiting the truth and limiting the good that we'll find in the complex middle. 259 00:22:29,030 -- 00:22:30,200 And in this case, 260 00:22:30,200 -- 00:22:44,190 I think the wonderful thing about this approach is it does emphasize uh welcoming all kinds of diverse inputs to discussion services and program development as far as they do go, 261 00:22:44,200 -- 00:22:51,260 which is neuro diversity that we bring together the neuro diverse to serve the neuro diverse. 262 00:22:52,500 -- 00:22:53,030 Now, 263 00:22:53,030 -- 00:22:55,620 I love to hear people's stories, 264 00:22:55,630 -- 00:22:56,580 their opinions, 265 00:22:56,580 -- 00:23:01,170 their perspectives and whether those are from the autistic individual, 266 00:23:01,170 -- 00:23:01,940 their friends, 267 00:23:01,940 -- 00:23:03,320 their family members, 268 00:23:03,330 -- 00:23:07,320 whether those are from individuals and a helping profession, 269 00:23:07,320 -- 00:23:08,550 anyone, 270 00:23:08,560 -- 00:23:12,350 it enriches me over and over and over again. 271 00:23:13,700 -- 00:23:14,390 However, 272 00:23:14,390 -- 00:23:24,700 I think saying that only autistic providers should come alongside the autistic to provide input is limiting in a way that would work against the greatest good. 273 00:23:24,710 -- 00:23:31,330 Not because the autistic providers viewpoint is not valid or in some way less than others viewpoint. 274 00:23:31,340 -- 00:23:44,400 But because the breadth of specialization and experience that benefits individuals is so huge that no one group of individuals can ever cover all of that information. 275 00:23:44,410 -- 00:23:54,020 And I think if we tap into our diverse knowledge and experience that we will have the richest information to share. 276 00:23:54,030 -- 00:23:59,240 So having occupational therapists and neurologists and neuropsychologist, 277 00:23:59,250 -- 00:24:02,290 experts in academic learning and nutrition, 278 00:24:02,300 -- 00:24:05,200 all of these things are so beneficial, 279 00:24:05,210 -- 00:24:13,150 such richness of knowledge and experience that it's the exchange here that brings the blessing. 280 00:24:13,160 -- 00:24:18,030 It's increasing the diversity of input that brings the blessing. 281 00:24:18,490 -- 00:24:27,720 And some of these individuals in their specialization will be on the spectrum and some will not in other examples. 282 00:24:27,730 -- 00:24:28,200 You know, 283 00:24:28,200 -- 00:24:36,470 if I had multiple sclerosis and I would only receive care from a neurologist who had the same diagnosis. 284 00:24:36,480 -- 00:24:41,670 I would be limiting some of my um options. 285 00:24:41,670 -- 00:24:43,740 There may not be someone available. 286 00:24:43,750 -- 00:24:47,690 Uh This person may not be as experienced as someone else. 287 00:24:47,700 -- 00:24:52,030 Um I may be limiting where I could have a whole team of people. 288 00:24:52,030 -- 00:24:53,090 Maybe I'm saying no, 289 00:24:53,090 -- 00:24:54,870 I just want this one person. 290 00:24:55,300 -- 00:24:59,490 It would get even more difficult if I had two conditions, 291 00:24:59,490 -- 00:24:59,930 right? 292 00:24:59,930 -- 00:25:04,870 That I have multiple sclerosis and congestive heart failure. 293 00:25:04,880 -- 00:25:05,390 Now, 294 00:25:05,390 -- 00:25:12,550 do I have to find a provider that has both or I can see a heart provider that also has congestive heart failure? 295 00:25:13,230 -- 00:25:22,290 It's not that there's not value in getting input from others who share characteristics about your life and have walked in your shoes and get it. 296 00:25:22,300 -- 00:25:25,220 I think that's really valuable. 297 00:25:25,700 -- 00:25:32,230 But there's also value in getting input from those who don't share the same characteristics, 298 00:25:32,230 -- 00:25:40,150 but they have areas of expertise that they can offer some input that you wouldn't get in other places. 299 00:25:40,250 -- 00:25:41,190 Essentially, 300 00:25:41,190 -- 00:25:46,240 we're talking about the benefits of diversity and getting diverse input. 301 00:25:46,240 -- 00:25:50,810 When you have some struggles or limitations in any form of your life, 302 00:25:51,140 -- 00:25:57,930 then you get to take in the perspectives of all those other people and you decide what's helpful to you. 303 00:25:57,940 -- 00:26:03,160 But you have a lot of diverse input and rather than limiting the input, 304 00:26:03,160 -- 00:26:04,140 you're getting, 305 00:26:04,150 -- 00:26:11,020 you get to take in this information process it and say this has really helped me. 306 00:26:11,030 -- 00:26:17,290 This is not helpful to me and you get to be the filter for what you take into your own life. 307 00:26:17,810 -- 00:26:20,720 This is a really complex topic. 308 00:26:20,730 -- 00:26:23,220 There's a lot of emotions involved. 309 00:26:23,230 -- 00:26:24,410 I think in the end, 310 00:26:24,410 -- 00:26:38,470 what I'm saying is just that being able to be in the center of complexity helps me the most to understand the good and the difficult, 311 00:26:38,480 -- 00:26:43,220 the strength and the struggle of all kinds of human experience. 312 00:26:43,230 -- 00:26:54,750 And I would emphasize that the inherent value of the person is in their personhood and that never changes. 313 00:26:54,760 -- 00:27:02,820 So whether we're working with someone on something that they're celebrating or something that they're grieving, 314 00:27:02,830 -- 00:27:07,200 we can come along either way and say you are important, 315 00:27:07,580 -- 00:27:09,110 your personhood, 316 00:27:09,120 -- 00:27:11,300 you have this inherent value. 317 00:27:11,310 -- 00:27:13,600 I value that you've come, 318 00:27:13,610 -- 00:27:21,320 I value your story and your input and let me come alongside you and add what I can to your journey. 319 00:27:22,070 -- 00:27:31,790 I'm glad that you joined me today and that you're part of this podcast community and I hope you join me next time for another great topic.

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