Bannon`s War Room
WarRoom Battleground EP 882: Harnwell Interviews An Advocate Of Christian Theocracy And A Neuroscientist Specialising In War
31 Oct 2025
Chapter 1: What is the primal scream of a dying regime?
This is the primal scream of a dying regime. Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people. I got a free shot on all these networks lying about the people. The people have had a belly full of it. I know you don't like hearing that. I know you've tried to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen.
And where do people like that go to share the big lie? Mega media. I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose? If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved. War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bann.
Good evening, Hanwell here at the helm on Steve Bannon's War Room. Got a great show for you over the next hour. In fact, we're talking to who many people consider to be the honorary chaplain of the Christian nationalist movement, Pastor Doug Wilson. Pastor Wilson, many thanks indeed for coming on to the show. You folks...
might know you somewhat in the press as being the lightning rod from liberals and progressives who believe you want to, well, with some justice, want to restore a theocratic state, to fully submit the United States to the glories that it once was, which was a nation under God, that is, under God's holy law. This is something that I think is going to be meat and drink to the War Room audience.
Before I hand over to you, though, I've noticed that you have said that many people have said that if you get your way, and many people are listening to you, many people in the White House, many people in MAGA are listening to, you are an increasingly important voice in this movement.
But the accusation has been made that if Doug Wilson gets his way, then women are going to have to be put in the red robes with the white bonnets. It's going to be pure handmade tale territory. Is that a reasonable criticism?
Well, the last time I was in D.C. preaching at our church plant there, I actually talked to a couple of women in red dresses. They were actually there. Now, of course, I think they were paid to be there by somebody else, but yeah, the whole idea... Were they prepping for the future? Yeah, they were in training, apparently. Yeah, so... This is a scare tactic thing.
It's scare tactics, right? It's scare tactics. Of course it is. That said, I know many people will be slightly disappointed because that's exactly what they're hoping to see. You're clearly on the liberal progressive wing of Christian nationalism. It's a broad church on the wall. Seriously though, tell us the warring posse, tell us more structurally about your thought here.
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Chapter 2: How does Pastor Doug Wilson define Christian theocracy?
And you just need to look around to see the chaos. Basically, the whole thing is coming apart in our hands. And so consequently, I think we need to cry out to the Lord. We need to say, God, we have painted ourselves into a very bad corner.
Well, many people will say amen to that, and it's clear, especially from a Christian perspective, that Christ needs to be the center of our social life, of our political life, of everything. Is there a tension?
But I'm going to ask you whether there's a tension there between having the sovereignty of Christ and a nation where the sovereignty, let's say, belongs either, depending on your interpretation, to the people or to the Constitution. Tell me something about the tension there. And also, because I have to ask you this, what the role for non-Christians and religious minorities will be.
But more substantially than that, those two points, tell me, because everyone who follows this show will agree to what you said. It's either Christ or chaos. But how does Doug Wilson's philosophy differ from the common or garden evangelical philosophy? Why are liberals so terrified of you? What's the theocratic element here behind your thought that is really driving them crazy right now?
The theocratic element is our recognition that allāI'm not arguing for us to become a theocracy. We are a theocracy right now. All societies are theocratic. The only thing that distinguishes them is who the god is. Every social order has a god of the system. So in a democracy, a pure democracy, Demos, the people, would be the god of the system.
The god of the system is the one past which there is no further appeal. Now, I believe that since all societies are inescapably theocratic, And the only question is, who's Theo? That Theos, that God, that deity, should be the true one, should be the true God. And of course, as a Christian, I believe the Christian God is the true and living God. So that's the first thing.
The second thing is, just touching on religious minorities and people who don't agree, the heritage of the West that we're trying to preserve, that we're fighting to preserve, is the heritage that invented liberty of conscience. That's our baby. That's our legacy. That's what we did. It is the left that denies the right of personal conscience.
And so consequently, if we structured our laws in accordance with Scripture, if we recognize the God of the Bible, the God of the Bible tells us that we are not to promulgate our religious convictions by force. We can... our laws that require force, laws against murder and rape and so on, need to have a transcendental foundation.
But that doesn't mean that you get to prosecute sins as though they were crimes. So in Christian theology, there's a distinction between a sin and a crime. I believe that crimes ought to be biblically defined, and we ought to leave a vast swath of sins alone. There's So I don't want to establish a covetousness police, right? Covetousness is a sin, and it's a very serious sin.
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Chapter 3: What criticisms does Doug Wilson face regarding his views?
I'm envious." We leave that to God at the last day, and the Bible never assigns a civil penalty for sins like envy or jealousy or hatred or things like that. As long as you don't take steps to act on your hatred via murder, then the state leaves you alone. And so this is the thing that a lot of people would be surprised by.
Under a theocratic libertarian order, the average citizen would have a great deal more freedom than he currently has. We're not ushering in a reformed despotic regime where reformed clergymen with weird beards are telling you or orchestrating every detail of your life. We have that now. We have that now. They tell me that I have to sort my garbage now.
They tell me what light bulbs I get to use now. They tell me that I have to put a brick in the tank of my toilet now. They're regulating every last detail of life now, and we want to get away from that.
Here in Italy, the government tells you when you're allowed to turn your central heating on or off. You know, George III, King George III would blush with shame if he saw what was going on in America right now. The long train of abuses that was the legitimate cause for the revolutionaries to throw off the English crown was minuscule compared to the size and scope of the U.S. government Today.
So, you know, it's not often you hear these terms, theocracy and libertarian welded together in the same philosophy. But it would make sense. It's coherent what you're saying. If you think about the Jews at the time of, I don't know, the time of the New Testament, the first century. Yeah, I mean, the code of law was effectively the Bible, the Old Testament.
And that was massively less invasive than the full gamut of local, state, and federal government today. I have to go to a break in two minutes, but here's a question for you when you're talking about bringing these two things, the state and religion, faith, together again, bringing them back together.
The founding fathers were quite concerned about the possibility of state power to pollute the integrity of the Christian faith. And that was the primary motive behind the concept of the separation of church and state. It wasn't remotely what the secularists had in mind.
They wanted a Christian nation, but they didn't want the polluting political powers to corrupt the church as the Crown had done with the established Church of England. Right, exactly. Which is the case that you see today. But tell me, if you're bringing these two forces together, how do you keep the integrity of the Christian faith from being polluted by politicians, by the state?
I would say that I support wholeheartedly the separation of church and state, but that's different than the separation of morality and state. A church is an ecclesiastical government, and the founders did not want a national church of the United States.
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Chapter 4: What does Doug Wilson believe about the secular project?
He's the president. Could he do that? Would that be constitutional for you? Is that something that you would urge him to consider, to establish Christianity formally as the religious and cultural basis of the United States?
I don't know that an executive order would be the way to do it. I would prefer, just aside from a constitutional amendment, there are things that I think we could do, like a joint proclamation of Congress. So all Congress has to do is pass a resolution saying that it is our conviction and it is the opinion of the Senate and the House that Jesus rose from the dead. And have the president sign it.
That would keep the liberals busy for a while. Because you're not doing anything that requires anything of anybody. But you're simply testifying.
Yeah, I think that's like that mirrors the Polish situation and the Irish constitution, which takes its inspiration from the Holy Trinity. However, to stay on this point, to stay on this point, obviously, obviously, some kind of law passed by Congress would be a resolution passed by Congress would be the most appropriate. would be this permanent way.
However, circumventing the fact that Congress shall establish no religion, why, as a first step before you get your majorities in both houses of Congress, why not push the president to push out an EO? I don't know what you mean by that. adopting most of what you want to achieve.
Because he's not constitutionally prohibited, is he? He's not Congress. No, he isn't. An executive order could be something like, I am directing all the offices in the executive branch to celebrate Christmas and the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ. But his executive orders have to be directed to entities he has actual authority over to tell them to do something. Right.
So I would be in favor of something like that.
They can acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Savior. They can acknowledge that Jesus Christ was born for the salvation of man, right? That would be a phenomenal, right? That would be an absolutely phenomenal maneuver.
Right. Yes, and it would be pretty festive for a couple of months afterwards.
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Chapter 5: How does Doug Wilson differentiate between sin and crime?
Humans have very different objectives. It's very difficult to know how we're going to set an objective that is the right objective, you know, for humanity, for AI. So I don't think it's possible for us to simply align an AI's objectives to exactly what we want for humanity, because that's very difficult.
I think what we need to do is we need to create an AI that can make wiser choices, that can lift its eyes and see the bigger picture about itself and ask better questions and make wiser, not just cleverer decisions. And I think that's what we're going to have to do with AI.
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And it's absolutely fascinating what you're saying. The necessity to think about thinking is the basic mandate of philosophy, right? For two and a half thousand years, Western philosophy, that's exactly what it is. It's the meta-analysis using the reflective capacity to analyze the reflective capacity.
That would certainly be a sign, wouldn't it, that AI has established true consciousness if it were able to do that. But one question I have for you is that nearly every culture in one way or another through the course of time has found myths that sanctify war from the Iliad to Jihad. Do you think that myth-making is a neural necessity, a way to make sense of that fear that the amygdala drives?
I think you're entirely correct. So again, so people overstate this. So it's not like myths are everything, but they're one of the important things, right? We have a whole set of systems in our brain that are all important. And our capacity for myths is one of those things. So I'll just give you an example, right? A really important thing.
People worry about societies falling apart, American society falling apart, British society falling apart or whatever. But the remarkable thing isn't that societies fall apart. It's that we can form, humans can form groups of more than a couple of hundred individuals at all because no other primates can. No other primates can form a coherent group of more than a few hundred individuals.
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