Chapter 1: How can being alone lead to self-discovery?
listener production i fell in love with being alone and i fell in love with myself you know before i had been like oh i'm a feminist and i don't need no man and whatever but none of that was probably truly real like i was still on some level chasing men
Hi, I'm Sarah and this is Small Talk. It's not quite a news headline, but it is what the girls are talking about. And today I'm here with Dee Salmon. Welcome. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to have you on. For those who don't know Dee, I'm sure many people do, but you've been the host of The Hookup for years and you've just written a new book.
I power read it last night and throughout the last week and I love it so, so much.
Thank Thank you. Well done. Thank you so much. It's such a weird feeling. It's like everything I've ever thought and felt and learned from the hookup and my own life and my friends' lives, like just on paper.
Chapter 2: What insights does Dee Salmin share about modern dating?
And so it'll be really interesting to see how people perceive it and what they think. What have you heard so far? A lot of people who have read it have just been saying that they felt really seen. I've had friends message me being like, I'm bawling my eyes out. And I'm like, oh no, I don't want to make people cry.
One of my friends was like, I don't keep promises to myself and you write about how you should. And I was like, no, no, no. Like, yes, that's a good, like, that's a good thing, but I don't want to upset anyone. So it's been really interesting because you just never know, like hearing what people relate to and what, yeah, they find kind of triggering has been really interesting.
I did think that when I was reading it, there's so much in it that I'm sort of just pulling out bits that like hit for me. But I just think everyone has so much that they could take from this in different levels, in different ways. But the first thing that really, really got me, like, again, not making someone cry again. When you opened about talking about the love actually scene.
Oh, doesn't that make you, genuinely, like I've watched it so many times. And I spoke about it in the book, like when I was writing that chapter about when, what's the character's name?
Chapter 3: How do attachment styles affect relationships?
Karen. Yeah, when she finds the necklace and she thinks it's going to be the Joanie Mitchell CD. And it's both sides now. And she's just like the one tear, like I was crying while writing it because I was watching it at the same time. And I just, it just hits. It hits every time.
It really does. And I'm actually going to read it because I wrote it down because I was like, I need to set the scene for everyone. You said, if you were to ask me what my biggest fear was, I would probably tell you heights.
But if you were to ask me on a deeper level, I would tell you my actual biggest fear in life is ending up like that gut-wrenching scene in Love Actually where Karen realizes her longtime husband, Harry, has been having an affair. And I was just like, the shiver that went down my spine as soon as I read that. Because I think you're right. It's so relatable to so many people.
Even Emma Thompson, when she was doing that scene, had something happening in her real life.
Yeah. Her husband, Alan Rickman, was having a full-on affair with Helen and Bonacarta. I can't believe it. Harry Potter will never be the same to me for multiple reasons, actually. I know, I know. Especially that now.
When I was researching it and I saw that she'd done a few interviews on that particular scene because it clearly is a scene that just hits so hard for so many people, especially women. She was like, yeah, because I was actually going through a very, very similar thing with my own marriage. Yeah.
Which I think adds to the point that I was trying to make, which is that so many women end up in relationships and marriages like that and...
you know it's something that we've for a lot of us we've grown up watching maybe with our own parents or with people we know and just being like that's my biggest phobia like I do not want to end up in a relationship where I am so excited about the idea of just even getting a necklace for my husband no I know it was and they're not even and they're getting a scarf I know I
The whole thing is such a nightmare, but also I think exactly what you're saying. Like, we're not even allowed to watch that movie at Christmas anymore because my mum gets too upset every time that scene comes on. Like, I will watch Love Actually every Christmas still, but I can't watch it with mum anymore. She's like, that scene alone, I can't handle.
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Chapter 4: What are the benefits of enjoying your own company?
why I feel so passionate about this book now. You said, I dedicate this book to women who have given up parts of themselves in relationships or in the pursuit of one, to women who have dedicated their lives to being wives and mothers only to end up lonelier than they would have been if they had just chosen to be alone. I want to make this episode about today about
the art of being single and how to be single and how to be okay with being alone. Because I think for you, someone who has hosted and produced a podcast all about relationships for so long now, but also the fact... You've spoken to countless people. You've also said yourself that you've been single for like a really long time before the relationship you're in.
I just think the most qualified person to talk to about this. And I also love the way you spoke about love being such a gamble as well. Like it's like the odds are terrible. It's not really in your favor. 41% of marriages in Australia end in divorce. But like the best chance you have at being in a happy, lasting relationship is to figure out how to be single first.
It's like so counterintuitive. I know. It's like the messages we've constantly brought up consuming right has been around, you know, to be whole is to find your other half and your life doesn't really begin until you find the one and your soulmate. And I think that's been even more perpetuated for women. And this idea that like your role in society, especially in our Western one is to, you know,
grow up and find a husband and have kids and be a mother and be a wife. And like you said with your mom, like this was kind of something that I grew up seeing around me with my own parents and with the women in my life. And I think that like the odds are so stacked against you, right? And it's not even just the divorce statistics. I think when we actually unpack
the ways in which women are kind of set up for failure when it comes to inequality in marriage and relationships, like, you know, domestic and emotional and mental labour, like solely falls on majority women in heterosexual relationships. And I think that it's really interesting that we're so obsessed with this idea of getting engaged and getting married and finding your soulmate.
And then, like, I kind of talk about it in the book, but I'm like, well, you know what's on the other side, right? Like, we're so obsessed with this idea. But, like, what for? Because on the other side of that actually is a relationship that maybe isn't going to be as fulfilling as you once probably thought.
Yeah.
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Chapter 5: Why is the concept of the 'cool girl' problematic in dating?
And I think something as well is... It's not really your fault for really wanting to be in a relationship. Like you were saying, it's in every movie. Was it like 40% of movies don't pass the Bechdel test?
Yes, yes.
Something insane. TV shows, it's a billion-dollar industry. Like you were saying, with weddings, with engagements, with dating apps, with... It's everywhere. Clothes, makeup, what you're wearing to a date. Like it...
is everywhere. And now we go on TikTok and it's like, women, if you want to get a guy, like I grew up being most, like I was single for most of my life and I grew up always wanting a partner because I thought that there was something wrong for not having one because all of my friends were in relationships and everyone I knew had boyfriends.
And it wasn't until I was 18 that I ended up in a relationship, but I was always reading these books and it was like the rules and how to get the guy. And
textbook romance by Zoe Foster Blake and I was so obsessed with consuming this content right and the Matthew Hussey stuff like on YouTube and oh my god I was always obsessed I was like I always really wanted to like figure it out like I was like what am I doing wrong I had the Zoe Foster Blake love book yes in like early high school and I was like better get to the bottom of this yeah it's a great book but I remember at the time being like you haven't even been on a date like what are you so stressed
Exactly, exactly. And I just, I consumed that content so much that like I fully internalized the idea that there was something wrong with me because I hadn't had a boyfriend yet. And I think that a lot of those books and that content There's not much about being single, right? It's like a small step in your life before, you know, you're just like, oh, enjoy it while you can.
But, you know, here's all the X, Y, Z you should do to get a guy. And now you go on socials. And like, yes, there's so much incredible content about being single and how it's embarrassing to have a boyfriend. But there is still... so much content around like, you know, sprinkle, sprinkle, ladies do this and this and you'll get a guy or like, here's how to get him.
And like, I saw a TikTok that I wrote about when I was writing the book and it was like, how to talk to him in your feminine, in your feminine vibe or something or like. And I was like, what does that even mean? Yeah.
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Chapter 6: How does COVID influence our relationship with being single?
you know, not texting, double texting. And I just think it's exhausting.
Everything.
It's exhausting.
It was exhausting. And even when I was younger, like it was the Tumblr equivalent or whatever. I remember being in, was it maybe like year 10? And I got The Victoria's Secret two-add-two-cup-sized bra. Like, do you remember those back in the day? Yeah. And then I put hockey socks in. And then I did the, like, clip at the back and then wore it to school for a day.
And just, like, everyone was like, what the fuck is ā like, you clearly have socks in your dress. Where did these boots come from?
Yeah.
And I was like, and then I went so far the other direction that I thought I'd like mastermind boys by dressing like a young, like dressing like a 45 year old for no good reason. Like I was like wearing a turtleneck around. I was like, boys like sophistication.
Yeah.
The glasses, the like, this is the thing where I did that as well. Like I tried so many different versions of that like quote unquote cool girl. Yeah. Which, you know, is spoken about in that monologue, that really famous monologue in Gone Girl. But it's like I was, if I was into a surfer, which was like most of the guys I was into, it was like I was a chill beach babe, you know, like...
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Chapter 7: What practical steps can help someone embrace being single?
And I have so many incredible friends that have never been in relationships still. And we have these conversations and it does turn into this like ā Where do I start with this? How do I get guys' attention? How do I get the right guys' attention? Or how do I come too comfortable being single? It just feels like there's no win in this at all.
And the whole conversation around single is like this light at the end of the tunnel. And I'm going, I'm so glad I had those years. I could not recommend it more to anyone else that I had those years being single. And I literally was lying in bed next to my lovely boyfriend now. And I'm reading your book and I have highlighters out. You should literally see here.
Oh, Sarah, this makes me so happy. I literally was like putting like... Oh, that makes me so happy. Being single is the best thing that will ever happen to you. And I'm going, mm-hmm.
And he's like, what are you reading?
And I was like...
Like, take note, take note. You're like, it's a privilege to be here.
Yeah, genuinely. But you've written that in your book and you said that COVID was a big catalyst for you. Yeah.
Can you talk about that? Yeah. So I had, like you, pretty much been single my whole, like, teens, 20s. I had a relationship for a couple, seven months. Yeah. that I spoke about in the book and then a quick boyfriend after that.
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Chapter 8: How can we shift our perspective on loneliness and relationships?
But then I spent all my twenties being single. And then I went into lockdown in Melbourne when I first got the job at Triple J. So I'd like moved my whole entire life over, drove across the Nullarbor and yeah, was isolating in an apartment by myself. And it was the first time, like I had been single, right? But it was the first time that I had actually been single. And I, and I had this like
incredible opportunity which at the time I was like you know it was forced obviously yeah didn't couldn't meet anyone couldn't see anyone couldn't talk to anyone but I had this incredible opportunity to actually sit with my thoughts and sit with myself that I hadn't had previously to actually work on
My patterns in dating and work on myself and I went to therapy and I read so much and I journaled and I really unpacked and realized that so much of my time being single, I had still spent chasing men, right? And I was still, it was either like on the apps or I was always messaging someone or always on a date with someone or hooking up with someone. And I had never actually truly been single.
And once I had sat with that and spent months in lockdown being by myself, I really learnt to cherish it and I really learnt to love it. And it's almost like I rewired my brain in a way that I was like, oh my God, like... I actually really love this and there's, like, peace and there's contentment and there's no anxiety and I'm not, like, constantly being ghosted or let down or disappointed.
And at the time, boy sober wasn't a term that had been coined, but I was like, I'm going to be intentionally... on my own now and just, you know, really make sure that I'm not having sex with, I didn't have sex for a year and a half. Then I had sex with someone, then I didn't have sex for a year and a half again.
And I just spent so much of that time, like nurturing parts of myself that I hadn't nurtured since I was like, even before teenage years, you know, things that I felt really passionate about and really loved, like drawing and writing and you know, I spent so much time like just hiking and I went to uni online, even though I was working full time.
And I just, I fell in love with being alone and I fell in love with myself in a way that I, you know, before I had been like, oh, I'm a feminist and, you know, I don't need no man and whatever. But like none of that was probably truly real. Like I was still on some level chasing men and
ever fully escape that though. That's also part of learning yourself as well to be like it's always going to be innate to us but at least having that awareness and control gives such like it's a whole new lease on life after that.
Exactly and I genuinely got to a place where I was like if I am on my own for the rest of my life, I'm going to love that. I'm excited by that. I have no worries or anxieties. And this is me getting into my like thirties.
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