Show notes
SHOW NOTES
ZERO: CRISIS TALKS
—Sharon was intrigued by Rebecca’s book because climate change isn’t what she’s usually drawn to: “There are only two in my entire ridiculous library.” She wants to know the psychology of the problem and wonders if inventor Thomas Edison could have foreseen 130 years on the problems caused with so much electricity powered by coal. “He and Tesla and Westinghouse created something that changed the planet, transformed our entire experience … and we have to work out if the price we’re paying for it is too high.”
—Rebecca is “as excited about the possibilities of renewable energy as people would have been when they saw the light bulb happen .. they really were looking to make some money and make people’s lives better and that’s where we are with renewable energy today.” What interests her is there are places without electricity still in the world but they have solar micro grids and other renewables, “so in a sense renewable energy is just as exciting if not more exciting, potentially who knows what that means in the next 50 years.” Warns we have to make sure the materials used for solar panels can be recycled and reused: “Renewable energy doesn’t let us off the hook when we think about our connection to the Earth. We need to think about how much we really need, do we need massive houses and overseas trips five times a year? It doesn’t let us off the hook thinking about what kind of life can we live and how do we tread on this Earth. I see some really interesting parallels between those early moments you talk about and where we are now.”
—Sharon quotes Norwegian psychologist Per Espen Stoknes, who called climate change the “largest science communication failure in history” and asks why it matters that we shift people’s attitudes, perceptions and actions when it comes to climate change.
—Rebecca: “He’s right, the level of threat that climate change poses to everybody on the planet has been proven by science to the greatest degree it has been proven … that being said, there’s something about the nature of climate change that makes it very difficult to a World War, an extreme weather event or a pandemic.” Now there are daily triggers to remind us of the pandemic (masks, hand sanitiser in shops) and social cues and government rules around changing our behaviour. “With climate change that doesn’t exist, we can’t see the build up of CO2. Even when we see signs of climate change it’s very easy to justify that in our minds: ‘Maybe that’s natural, that bushfire isn’t connected to climate change.’ It just doesn’t have the immediate threat and because of that the very nature of climate change makes it even more important that our leaders are able to articulate to people clearly that even though this is a threat they can’t see it’s a threat they have to take seriously.” Needs effective leadership for people to connect it with their daily lives.
9.40: THE FACTS
—Sharon lays out why climate is different to weather, noting we are at the tipping point and scientists have agreed since the 1970s we can’t let the world heat up more than another two degrees Celsius without experiencing surging and wild weather events. She notes with melting ice caps “you can’t switch off the melting which is what alarms me … it accelerates and becomes a self-perpetuating retreat of the ice caps and that happens faster and faster. Because we can’t reverse it, all we can try to do now is try to shore up the damage we’ve done, we are passed prevention. in the last 100 years there has been more instability in the climate than in any other time in the last ten thousand years. We have more arid lands, we have less potable water, less farm land we can farm, less reliable sources of living near the ocean because the ocean is no longer acting the way we expect it to act. That is where we are heading in the next 20 years … I totally understand what I just said is a real downer.”
—Rebecca says we know from history that in times of climate unpredictability, “societies which are already under pressure find it very hard to adapt.” Even if we keep the temperature rise at two degrees, there will be famines and people being displaced, and that it will play a role in “driving anti democratic and totalitarian governments.” She uses the pandemic as an example of what happens when something terrible befalls the world and civil liberties are suspended to keep people safe: “It is absolutely clear that societies under an incredible amount of pressure in terms of lack of food and violence, you have the military and other kinds of totalitarian regimes step in. So it is about the weather but it is also about us. How do we respond to extreme situations? You can see it’s a recipe for actual human disasters as well as extreme weather events.”
—Rebecca says we have to think what are the societal and community strengths we have to ensure we can still remain a tolerant and happy society … it’s about how do we strengthen not just our economic capital but our social capital and how individually do we support each other to make sur when these things happen we don’t turn on each other we turn to each other to adapt and be able to build resilience.”
—Sharon is less optimistic than Rebecca: “I don’t think we’ve handled our shit at all well.” Talks the queues that formed when the Victorian premier Daniel Andrews mentioned possible food shortages and says “I don’t really trust that we are geared to handle it being true.”
21.05: WE ARE ON HIGH ALERT
—Says the science, the psychological bias of negative bias means we are geared for the negativity and it’s a natural way we protect ourselves from things that could be bad.
—Rebecca wrote the book to talk about how we need to get prepared for when climate change really starts to bite in ten or 15 years, “how we talk to the people around us, how we really put it on your elected representatives and say you have a moral obligation as a group to protect us. There’s so much work to be done and this is why I moved my entire personal and professional focus towards climate change.” About two years ago she realised she need to prepare her children for the future they face: “I spent years getting them to brush their teeth and learn to swim and do their times tables and make sure I have enough savings to help them get a house. I have a responsibility as a parent to do everything I can to ensure there is an actual viable world for these children with good teeth, who can swim and know how to do their times tables.”
—She believes we have the technological tools but do we have the economic, political and social capital, do we have the emotional resilience, do we have the strong community ties, do we have that sense we live in a society that values our natural environment and values everybody’s life. No, I don’t think we do.” Says right now the ice caps are melting and “the Torres Strait islands are falling into the sea … “I have a lot of anxiety but I also feel a moral obligation to remain optimistic while there is still a time chance and an opportunity to do some things.”
24.28: THE LEADERSHIP ISSUE
—Sharon isn’t seeing government leaders get behind climate change and suspects one lever could be through business. References the Black Rock investment group which is now behind climate change and insists anyone they invest with have an emissions policy: “That has to be the lever, through shareholder advocacy.”
—Rebecca agrees and says there are “exciting movements” locally as well: “First State Super has made very similar commitments to Black Rock in terms of their investments mix. Business and investor groups and big money globally and in Australia is realising the clock is ticking on fossil fuels. The insurance industry has spoken out quite strongly about this and talked about the risks of creating an uninsurable world which is what we are doing. We are at the pojnt where there have to be more levers from every part of our society.” Discusses political backlash and South Australia and the ACT’s move towards renewables. “The problem we have its particularly for national governments, they have to win seats in Queensland to win, so there are some hurdles in Australian politics which are significant.”
—Says it’s exciting when conservative politicians like Matt Keane and Zali Steggall stand up for climate, “but we have to scale this up enormously to be able to make that change in the time we’ve got.”
29.40 THE BUSINESS OF BUSINESS
—Sharon puts it that the Trump government is “incredibly weak” on climate which could filter to other G7 countries and in the face of political inertia is looking to businesses and groups like Climate Action 100 to be proactive with global emissions and help create the political will.
—Rebecca says pressure is needed from all different businesses and tells how Tennis Australia is doing work around climate change because their marquee event the Australian Open is increasingly impacted by bushfires and searing heat which make it impossible to play tennis outdoors. She says the nature of the way politics works in Australia that creates roadblocks.
—Discusses the “synergy” between the Murdoch media and politicians and says climate change deniers are a very small group of Australians: “Very few of us are of the view that this will all be fine and that it’s great we have slightly higher temperatures so we can grow different types of grapes in Tasmania and it will be fine.”
36.15: “IT’S NOT TURNING PEOPLE ON”
—One of Sharon’s concerns with the environmental movement is she feels “judged … I am made to feel I am part of the problem. I had a young person say to me the other day, “We don’t care about the pandemic killing old people because you killed the planet.” Says where there is blame and shame, “it’s not turning people onto wanting to be a part of it. Being yelled at is not the way to win my heart.”
—Asks Rebecca how she would approach it, how we have a reasoned scientific conversation that shifts minds and actions.
—Rebecca says “it’s really important we are all aware of the individual decisions we make in our day to day life, whether we use plastic bottles, have a keeper cup, cycle or drive to work. They can collectively bring about a shift, but when you start to make saving the world come down to whether I have a disposable coffee cup … you are really not getting a sense of where the responsibility lies. We all try and do our best, none of us is perfect and finger pointing about not being the absolute perfect green consumer is not going to be helpful and will turn people away from environmentalism because they think the price is too high.”
—Says research shows the group in Australia most disengaged on the climate issue is disproportionately women on low incomes who are renting, work part time and looking after kids: “It’s not that those women don’t care. I know those women. I meet those women. They are just overwhelmed ad if you say climate change means buying these products and being a vegan they are already struggling. How is it their responsibility for saving the planet and why would you continue to shame them when they already are under an enormous amount of stress? It has no place. The only people we should be trying to shame are the politicians actively stopping progess on renewable energy.”
—Says getting people “to understand as a collective that we are responsible for the Earth we live on and how we leave it when we leave is important, but responsibility is not the same as crushing guilt and shame. We do need to give people a sense of connection between how we live our lives and the consequences, and then we need to move very quickly to effective action. What can you do about it and how can you work to save the things you love, stop too much of the loss of things you love and build a liveable future.”
43.12 THE WOKE PROBLEM
—Sharon notes Rebecca says in her book that environmentalists “come across as too woke. It turns people off. You know it’s an emotions-based energy coming at you, and I don’t need to deal with your emotions. I don’t think we can transform the planet by excluding and shaming people. That’s not the world I want to create.”
—Rebecca: “What we want to do is about engaging people on the issue in a way that makes it feel relevant and comfortable for them. So it’s not just about engaging but acting.” She says shaming makes people turn inwards. Equates it to motherhood and knowing the difference between criticising the behaviour and criticising the child. “We need to do the same with climate communications. We cannot be pointing fingers at people and saying, ‘You are a bad person’ for working in the coal and fossil fuel industries. Those are the jobs they get to sustain their families.”
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—Sharon asks how we win people over, and points to the solutions chapter which is page 235 in the book.
—Rebecca says it was a really difficult chapter to write because there isn’t one argument to win everyone over: “In the book I talk about the climate change script about what is happening. You can put that in front of different people and some will be scared, some will say, ‘Oh my God, this is serious, I want to do something.’ We have to find lots and lots of different ways to tell the climate story to engage people in it.”
—Sharon notes images of violent weather changes apparently don’t work because they cause a feeling of powerlessness, hopelessness and helplessness: “I find that very interesting.”
—Rebecca says peolpe are engaged by seeing the rebuilding of communities after an event, in a way that is climate positive, “so there is that sense of rebuilding out of disaster.”
—As a social researcher, the first thing she wants to do is listen to why somebody feels the way they do about climate change: “They start by saying it’s bullshit and I say, ‘Why do you think that and where did you get those views?’ I am genuinely interested and often I am looking for what are the things that turn people off from the conversation. Is it because it’s too extreme? They feel they are being blamed, shamed, condescended to? Lectured to? They came from a family who always worked in the fossil fuel industry? They are worried about the economy and feel it’s risky to go to renewables? It’s working that out in a non-judgemental fashion. Regardless of how you feel about climate change it shows a move towards renewable energy is possible. They might start walking to work or have solar panels or barely get on a plane, and what we want to encourage is behaviour that is good for the planet, even if people’s views about climate change don’t exactly align with all this scientific evidence. I am very pragmatic in terms of getting everybody to a point, however we get them there.”
—Sharon admits she was “nervous” Rebecca would be “overly emotional” in her book but was pragmatic which made the subject matter very accessible. “You’re focussing on the individual, which I appreciate. I see it as the idea is to get us individuals to focus on who we vote for and to demand those policies in government and insist shareholders listen to individuals. If you do face the science, it’s shocking, dismal, quite overwhelmingly sad where we are heading, especially in poor countries who will get flooded in the next ten to 15 years, no matter what we do now. Individuals can have a voice, that’s the beautiful thing about democracy and capitalism. We are not a lobby group, that’s the disappointing thing, like a coal industry or car manufacturing, so we somehow have to make it so individuals feel connected to the future of our planet in a positive way.”
—In every chapter she talks about the “extraordinary power” not just of storytelling but collective action as a way to mobilise people and engage them, foster what she calls resolute hope. When people ask if they should write to their MP, Rebecca suggest an alternative would be gathering together a parents’ group, professional organisation or workplace of 20 or 30 people and demanding a meeting with the MP. “That is going to be more effective. Groups of people coming in are scary.”
—In the US, conservative groups of bird watchers have strong collective power in climate change action. They are galvanised by increasing temperatures and climate change destroying birds’ environments. “Large groups of bird watchers are terrifying … once even quite small powerful groups come together than can really terrify politicians.”
—52.72 MUSK AND MARS
—Sharon is disappointed that Elon Musk, the “Edison of our times”, is putting so much effort into getting to Mars because he thinks we’ve ruined this planet: “Very poor message, that we need an alternative planet. I wish he would put his effort into renewables instead of how to get out of here. We don’t have Plan B. For leaders like him to put their energy, effort, money and voice into this planet would make a much bigger difference in the challenge of trying to get some momentum going than what he is doing now.” She also wants celebrity voices to get behind climate change, like for like costs in terms of coal vs cleaner energy and “give me a renewable I can get behind. Give me a renewable that makes it easier for me to make this decision to say that this is the pathway forward.”
—Rebecca agrees Musk could be spending his time fast tracking a much cheaper car than his Teslas and that celebrity voices can backfire: “In the end we need lots of and lots of different voices.” A lot of her research now is understanding people’s perceptions of renewables because “people generally agree that they’re the way to go but how do they feel about what are the barriers and downsides of going quickly to 100 per cent renewables in Australia. There’s a lot about making sure the renewables we have are also recyclable, don’t have their own environmental downsides. Coal mines are shutting down anyway, they are either getting too old or don’t have the social licence to continue, and renewables are getting more and more effective and efficient. If you had said ten years ago we could really be thinking about hydrogen as an industry in Australia nobody would have believed you because renewables, we just couldn’t generate that amount of electricity. So an enormous amount can happen in a short time and that goes back to the capacity of humans to be incredibly constructive and inventive, so I have some faith that with the right minds and the right policy frameworks there will be stuff happening … the point you are trying to make is a lot of people don’t understand that and have question marks about what renewables mean.”
—Sharon: “I think the environmental movement has a PR issue.”
—Rebecca agrees. “Absolutely. A lot of it is about messaging and marketing. I started my time in commercial and market research for financial institutions … and I am taking that knowledge and skill into the environmental movement. I am not alone. Communicating about climate change and the solutions to climate change is a massive marketing challenge. It’s not like selling someone a new Scotch Finger biscuit, it’s really tough: ‘I know I want the biscuit now but I don’t know why I want renewable energy now.’ It’s a massive challenge which is why it’s both exciting and terrifying at the same time.”
—Sharon: Puts it to Rebecca that they have “solved it” … “so we’re going to get Elon Musk on board with solving the problems here and bringing his genius mind to the problem we’ve got. We are going to get political will through action, acting locally and getting the politicians to pay attention to it. We’re going to let the coal mines fizzle out, which they are anyway, get really clear messaging on what an alternative source of renewable, clean, recyclable energy is that is like for like if you capped carbon emissions from coal mines, and not be yelled at if someone says they don’t necessarily believe it but to have them greeted and listened to.”
—Sharon adds another solution: “If mothersunited.com became a thing, where every mother signed up and said ‘I am joining on behalf of my children’ … if a billion voices became one voice that would matter.”
—Rebecca says there are already interesting mums for climate action groups and parent groups around climate action which are effective around the world. “What was interesting to me in the recent [2019] fires was realising all the things I love doing with my children at the end of the year, the school picnic and concert and all the summer things, were cancelled because of fires. We spent some time outside but otherwise it was too smoky or hot … and just realising this is affecting how I’m raising my kids. I’m a bit biased here but it was really my love for my kids and my sense of responsibility as a parent which led me to the climate movement and to climate change as an issue and has led o commit myself for the rest of my life. I even got a tattoo. I’ve never had a tattoo. It’s an S. All my kids’ names start with an S so a tattoo of their initials in my hand is a reminder that this is a fight I’ve got to stay in. It’s a very small tattoo and I haven’t told my mother and she would never forgive me. Speaking of mothers and shame and guilt I have not told her.”
—Asked by Sharon if there’s anything else to add, Rebecca loves that Sharon picked up the book even though she wouldn’t normally do that: “If anybody picks up this book and they feel like they could pass it on to somebody who would say, ‘ooh, I wouldn’t read a book on climate change’, encourage them to read it. Hopefully it’s a readable, accessible book on human beings and how we respond to crisis and how we can bring out the best in humanity for the challenge ahead.
—Sharon on the book: “I was expecting to get growled at and I appreciated the tone and timbre of the book and the way you made it very accessible. It’s very much a personal journey.”
—Rebecca notes at the back of the book she included resources including podcasts, movies, sites, reports and guides on how to talk about climate change and manage anxiety around it.”