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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
The Clare Byrne Show on Newstalk. With Aviva Insurance.
Now, the National Lottery would like the government to effectively ban bookmakers from accepting bets on its draws. A report commissioned by the operator of the National Lottery says that more than 800 million euro was bet with the bookies on the lottery draws. Cian Murphy is CEO of the National Lottery and he joins me now. So you're losing a lot of money to this, is your take on it?
We are. Thanks for having me in, Clare. Yeah, so the National Lottery has been around for 40 years. It's done a lot of good. Our players have raised over 7 billion for good causes.
Chapter 2: What does the National Lottery want to ban regarding betting?
But it is being undermined at the moment by the phenomenon of lottery betting. And that's where bookmakers offer to take bets on National Lottery draws. And this undermines the lottery in a number of ways. But it diverts money from good causes, which is one of the primary purposes of the National Lottery.
It diverts money from retailers and it makes the National Lottery, which belongs to the Irish people, less valuable.
OK, it's just I'm having a look at the odds here with one of the bookmakers so I can bet to match one number.
Chapter 3: How much money was bet on lottery draws last year?
Now, the odds aren't great on that. It's nine to five, seven to one, though, if I bet on matching to twenty five to one, if I bet on matching three. So I am more likely to win, aren't I, if I bet on the national lottery numbers with the bookies. That's why people are doing it.
Yeah, so just on a technical point, more likely to win, but I think you might win some more.
But there is an attraction to it is what I'm saying. That's why people are doing it, isn't it? Because they're saying, well, it's hard to win on the National Lottery because if I bet on... If I want four numbers to come up, say, with betting at the National Lottery, I have a one in over 17,000 chance of that happening.
But if I bet with the bookies on matching four, I have a 75 to one chance of that happening.
Yeah, so no one is, so we're not suggesting that bookmakers shouldn't be allowed to offer bets on a range of products. We're not even suggesting that bookmakers shouldn't be allowed, if they wanted to, to pull numbers out of a drum and offer people whatever odds they want to offer on those products.
You're saying they shouldn't be allowed to offer bets on your draw because
That's your draw. Specifically on the National Lottery. And I think if we really think about that, the only reason why bookmakers want to offer bets specifically on the National Lottery, as opposed to having their own product, is to piggyback off the brand, the reputation, the operations, and fundamentally the trust that has been built up for 40 years in the National Lottery.
Why don't you just do it yourself, though, and undercut them? You know, offer the same odds.
Right.
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of lottery betting on good causes?
And that's the reason why we're saying if bookmakers want to offer this product and they want to to run their own draw, which does this, that would be absolutely fine. But the only reason to do it on the National Lottery product is to create confusion. And that happens, the research is very clear that players are very confused. They believe that they are participating in the National Lottery.
Actually, on the way over on my phone, I was looking at some of the advertising that I've received from one operator in particular on this. And the advertising goes something like, Irish National Lottery jackpot, 7.2 million tonight. And then it offers four tickets for the price of three. And it's absolutely indistinguishable from the national offering.
From a customer's perspective, it's the same game. In that case, it's offering exactly the same odds and exactly the same payout. But of course, they are offering four tickets for the price of three. So from a customer's perspective, absolutely.
But you're not playing for the big prize there, are you?
In some of the operators, you absolutely are. So in some of the operators, it is an exact replica of the product. Sorry, of the National Lottery game.
So they will call it... So you'll get the same amount of money if you match all of the numbers. It's just coming from their pot, not yours. Absolutely. Oh, so that's interesting. So you want this practice to be banned, right, completely? Is that what you're saying?
So what we're calling for is for the government to follow what almost all EU countries have done at this stage. So 25 from 27 have outlawed this practice through a number of different mechanisms. It's been extremely effective where it has been banned. It's also actually the UK have also banned it. And we're calling on the government to follow suit and do that, to follow our EU neighbours.
This is a well understood problem. There is no good reason to allow private operators to offer exactly the same product on the balls coming out of the National Lottery drum.
And in countries where it has been banned, do the bookies come up with their own model then? No.
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Chapter 5: How do the odds compare between betting with bookies and the National Lottery?
But I think the the core of our problem is people betting on the national lottery draw. That is the part of this where I think there's no good reason to offer it. I've never heard somebody articulate to me a good reason why that should be allowed.
But what you're saying to me when I explain the odds to people and what they see is I'm more likely to win if I bet with the bookies. You're saying the national lottery can't afford to offer you those odds because 30% of each euro is going to good causes.
Absolutely. I'm saying the structure of the national lottery is that almost 30% or around 30% of every cent goes straight into a fund for good causes. That then goes to about four and a half thousand organisations around the country. It's your local GAA club, your local care home. People know that. People care about it. It's one of the reasons why people go and play the national lottery.
But the rest of it is for profit and admin.
Yeah.
Well, most of the rest of it is for prizes. So about 10 cents comes back to the operators after the retailer, after good causes and after prizes have been paid about 10 cents.
OK, but your point is that if you're betting with the bookie, none of their money has to go into the good causes fund. I just have a listener who says that this is a bit rich. One gambling entity looking to cut out the competition. They're calling it hypocrisy.
Yeah, so I think I'd repeat my point. We are not suggesting that bookmakers can't go and offer their own products or can't go and offer even a product which is similar. But just not your product? Just specifically our product, the balls coming out of our drum. The only reason why they want to do that is... is so that they can market it and advertise it as if it is the lottery.
It preys on our reputation, our brand, the operations, all the investment that we put into it. This is banned almost everywhere else. OK.
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