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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
The Clare Byrne Show on Newstalk. With Aviva Insurance.
Now the Cabinet will today discuss whether to unpick Ireland's triple lock. As Minister for Defence Helen McEntee brings her amendments to the Defence Bill to her colleagues this morning. Is this really a good idea?
Well Niall Collins is with us, Minister of State for Agriculture and Fianna Fáil TD for Limerick County and he joins me now as does Sinead Gibney, Social Democrats TD for Dublin, Wrathdown and you're both welcome to the programme. Sinead I'll come to you first. You say that ending the triple lock will be the final nail in the coffin for Ireland's neutrality. Why is that?
And so the triple lock is even the triple lock is a bit of a misnomer because the government is trying to say that the triple lock will become a double lock.
Chapter 2: What is Ireland's Triple Lock and why is it being discussed?
But actually, the government, the triple lock just basically provides for us an external arbiter to ensure that our peacekeeping activities remain under the mandate of the UN, under the blue helmet, the blue beret. It's been a long tradition for us.
But this is what I don't understand about this argument, because, you know, we have the Security Council, the permanent members of the UN, who will not allow us to do what we have done in the past. America, China and Russia. So why do we want to be beholden to that decision making process?
Nobody in the opposition is saying that the UN doesn't need reform. And we want our government to engage in that reform. We want the Security Council and the veto and all of the issues that stem from that to be dealt with. But that's not what this government is doing. Like, first and foremost, the triple lock can be satisfied by the General Assembly of the UN. And our government has not tried.
So they talk a lot about the veto and even the chilling effect of the veto before the veto is even used. But they do not try and go to the General Assembly to try and resolve it. For me, like the UN provides for us a multilateral approach to our foreign policy, which cannot be given or granted or satisfied by any other body. That's what the UN is there for.
But you're wistfully hoping and praying that the world hasn't changed fundamentally, like the UN has completely changed.
But the UN was established at a time of immense global conflict. So people talk a lot now about we are in a period of increased global volatility. That is what the UN was born from. And it said that when we act in regional blocs with our own self-interests at regional level, we will enter into world wars. And you know who are going to be the worst affected by that is smaller nations.
And that's why we set up a global order to essentially rise above that and provide for a multilateral, world and that's what we're leaving behind if we lose the triple lock.
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Chapter 3: How does ending the Triple Lock affect Ireland's neutrality?
Let's bring in Niall Collins on this because people will remember back at the time of the second Lisbon Treaty vote Niall that the triple lock was really leaned on as an absolute guarantee of our neutrality now you say it has nothing to do with our neutrality so you can see why people feel discombobulated.
That's true, but the world has changed radically since then. We've had no new peacekeeping missions mandated since 2014. And really, the whole geopolitical scenario has altered the whole decision-making process. I think it's right to remove the triple lock. I think people have to trust our government. They have to trust the members of Dáil Éireann.
And the legislation, when it is enacted over the coming weeks, will also ensure that any future peacekeeping missions, that it does adhere to the principles and the ideals within the United Nations Charter and indeed within international law. So I think we have to be mature about it. We have to be able to trust ourselves.
Unfortunately, the five Parliament members, as we know, just cannot be relied upon. They even vetoed a resolution recently calling for a full and final ceasefire within Gaza. So, you know, this is how serious it is.
But Sinead says that Ireland hasn't pushed this. You know, you haven't pushed the mechanism where you take this to the General Assembly. Would that not be the way to do it before we fundamentally change what we do here?
Yeah, I don't think that's really a workable avenue. Now, I do agree with Sinead that the United Nations has to be reformed. But look, you know, it's not one or the other. I think we can quite simply manage our own affairs. We have to trust our own judgment. We have to trust ourselves in terms of our military capability, our military capacity.
We have to listen to the leaders in our defence forces. when we're going about this in the future, and they'll all be part of any future decision making process. Look, I mean, at the end of the day, do we want Vladimir Putin or the leader of China or indeed the leader of the United Kingdom?
Are we going to maintain and sustain a situation where they decide what we do or where our Irish troops go to partake in peacekeeping missions? It's really farcical. And, you know, I go back to what I said at the outset. It's 2014 was the last time one of these missions was approved by the United Nations. So it's just not sustainable.
Just on that point that we we allow the Vladimir Putin's of the world to stop us from going in on these peacekeeping missions. That's where Niall Collins and the government say that we are.
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of a 'double lock' on peacekeeping missions?
But that's not again, this government isn't trying to do anything about it. So can I ask you this? That's reason enough. And we're just going to go and leave it all behind, leave multilateralism behind.
What is the danger of removing the triple lock and it becoming a double lock? What is the danger?
Niall talked a lot about trust there and that the people need to trust the government. I mean, first of all, I think that's questionable given how many U-turns we've seen from this government since they've been in office. I mean, we still don't have an OTB two years on, an Occupied Territories Bill.
But besides that, this would allow for any government of the future to deploy troops in a way that provides for no oversight and no guardrails. Like we have at the moment a madman in the White House in the US who is using... essentially at his disposal, different elements of the state to impose incredibly awful impositions on people, scooping up people in ICE raids and all the rest.
Like we cannot rely on our government to be the sole decision maker in the deployment of troops. I do not believe that that allows us to be militarily neutral.
So we need the guardrails of the UN is what you're saying.
Yes. Exactly. We need guardrails. And the ministers, various ministers have said that this new legislation will provide for guardrails. That is nonsense. They are simply not there. I mean, besides removing the triple lock, they're also... So besides removing the UN mandate requirement, they're also extending the deployment of troops up to 50 before they even have to come to the Dáil.
But I don't agree that people need to just trust. I mean, we are in a moment in time of increased militarisation. And again, like, I mean... I discussed this in the chamber a couple of weeks ago, and I talked about the myths that the government put out on this, which really make it so hard for people to cut through the argument. They say, first of all, they're only trying to reform it.
That is nonsense. This legislation will dismantle it completely. They say that it's not central to our neutrality anyway. And of course, Micheál Martin's quote on this is haunting him from 2013, where he said it. its core to our neutrality. Then they say that Europe isn't on a path towards militarisation. That is simply not true. I mean, we have installed a defence commissioner.
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Chapter 5: Why do some believe the government should trust the UN more?
Do you, Niall Collins, support Irish neutrality?
I do, of course. But look, I mean, clearly Sinead says she doesn't trust the present Irish government. And it's a fair statement out of her there now that she doesn't trust any future Irish government. And she, I think, is in a party that aspires to being in government in the future in Ireland. Now, that's a fair statement to say that she wouldn't trust herself. I did not say that, Niall.
I said I don't trust the current government.
And I said that this... Sorry, I didn't. No, I said... I did not. I know, but you're putting words in my mouth that are not true, Niall. I didn't interrupt you.
But did you not say that we don't know what's coming? So, you know, we could have a government in place that would have free reign here on military activity by the Irish Defence Forces.
Yes, but I didn't say I don't trust any future government. What I'm saying is that this government is saying we have safe hands. Let us be the decision makers. What I'm saying is that is not always going to be the case and we cannot plan for that. We need guardrails.
So to follow through Sinead's logic, which is crazy logic, in my opinion, is you will have a government in the future in Ireland that nobody can trust. And we'd rather trust Vladimir Putin's judgment in relation to all of this. Like this is just crazy logic out of the Social Democrats. And I think it's a real...
It's a real window of opportunity for the Irish public to see the true Social Democrats in terms of the non-serious policies that they have within their political movement. The facts are this. We've had nothing since 2014 that we can point to. The standout mission that we're involved in in the Lebanon is now being wound down.
We got an extension for another year, thankfully, so that we could do an orderly wind down. And it is the case that we want that we're militarily neutral. We're not involved. We don't participate in any military alliances. That's enshrined in our foreign policy. We know what the Constitution of Ireland says in relation to all of this.
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Chapter 6: What are the arguments for and against the removal of the Triple Lock?
It's called a general election. A government is elected and members of Dáil Éireann are elected and subsequently Seánidh Éireann. That is what the Irish people choose to do. They choose to elect people. And I think we have to trust in these people.
And for a member of Dáil Éireann to be saying that I don't have trust in the present government and I don't have trust in any future government is just a really staggering statement.
Our neutrality is absolutely copper fastened because of the triple lock. And now it is set down in law. And the Irish public said, OK, we accept that. And they voted Lisbon through on that basis. Now you're saying, don't worry about that. No, don't worry about it. It's grand. We're still going to be neutral, but it'll be a double lock.
Nothing changes in relation to our neutrality. Our neutrality is not being diluted. That is crazy logic, Niall. You're calling me crazy, but that is crazy logic. You've had a good run at this. Nothing is changing in relation to our neutrality. And you can keep saying it, Sinead, but it's not true. Our neutrality is not in threat. Our neutrality is not being watered down.
And Sinead, the world has changed radically since 2011, 2012, 2013. And if you cannot recognise that and if you cannot identify with that, Well, then again, you're leaving yourself down badly, in my opinion. You just have to look at all the various issues around the world that should never have occurred and that should be well resolved by now.
And allowing five parliament members of the United Nations. You've made that point.
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Chapter 7: How has the geopolitical landscape changed since the Triple Lock's introduction?
Just in our remaining time, I just want to move to the football game in September between Ireland and Israel. And we know now that the likely venue will not be Ireland. Sinead Gibney has been writing about this in the Examiner today. You're involved in the Stop the Game campaign. You want this completely pulled all together. You accuse the government of hiding behind the FAI and FIFA. Why?
The FAI and UEFA. So essentially the FAI have made the decision that they will not play or that they will play the game. And we expect now that the board will announce after the Ireland-France match, come on you girls in green, that they will move to a neutral venue. And essentially the government are saying that that's their decision. We can't do anything about it.
I have asked the minister directly, ministers, what they have done to essentially provide support to the FAI to essentially cover them for any financial sanctions that they might have. But also we have precedent on this. Fianna Fáil in the past blocked Yugoslav players from arriving here for another fixture.
So we know that when the government wishes to, that it can step in, but they're essentially hiding behind the FIA, Football Association of Ireland decision, and the FAI are, I would argue, hiding behind the UEFA decision and not challenging it further, despite the fact that their membership and football fans across Ireland have made it crystal clear that they do not believe that this game should go ahead.
Moving venue does not stop the game.
Now, do you think the game should go ahead?
Yes.
Well, first of all, there's a couple of points, if I can make them quite quickly. We're a global leader in terms of trying to bring about a positive change for the people of Palestine.
We, when I say the Irish state, the Irish people, led by the Irish government, we're leading a change right across the European Union in terms of the recognition of the state of Palestine, our unprecedented aid that we've given to them. We're going to enact the Occupy Territories Bill before the Dáil rises next July.
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Chapter 8: What safeguards does the government propose for future military actions?
Do you think it should go ahead or not?
I think my own, well, the government has stated its position in relation to this, that it's a matter for the governing authority and for the organisers of the competition itself.
So it's nothing to do with the government?
Well, my own personal view is, I'll give you my personal view because we know what the government view is. My own personal view is, The state of Israel shouldn't be allowed to compete in any of these competitions because they're a rogue state. They're engaged in apartheid genocide. The situation can't pertain.
And I think every lever should be pulled in relation to trying to bring them to account.
But if FIFA say they should play a match, we as the FAI in Ireland should go ahead with that decision, should agree with that decision and go and play that match.
And if I may, Niall, if you've just... I don't think we should disadvantage the Irish team. The point I'm making is this. The state of Israel, the Israel team shouldn't be allowed to compete. We shouldn't disadvantage ourselves by not turning up for the fixture. Wherever the fixture is played, I won't be going to it. That's my position in relation to it.
Will you be voting in favour of our motion tomorrow morning, which does exactly that?
Wait, wait, wait. Look, I mean, your motion is effectively meaningless. And motions at all, Aaron, don't decide any of these things. The point I'm making is the governing body, the governing bodies shouldn't allow, in my opinion, my personal opinion, the state of Israel to play in any of these competitions. And any decisions it's taken shouldn't disadvantage Irish soccer.
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